The Refereeing Thread

[Prydzopolis]

5 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/soccer-officials-threaten-to-shut-down-sydney-comp-over-bad-behaviour-20190601-p51ti9.html

Canterbury District 

To cancel a whole round seems harsh but what other way do you end up around it?

If you only stop the teams playing who were involved with that behavior, what happens to the games? Do these teams forfeit? Who gets points?

Difficult situation to find the best solution here, do Canterbury districts use Sin Bins? At least they’ve identified the issues & linked it to decrease in ref numbers. Hope something comes of it.

5 hours ago, mack said:

Also, how about that garbage handball call in the CL final.

Spot on 100%, seriously though, why is his hand in that position in the penalty box of all areas. Craziness. Don’t know how you blame the referee there

[Unlimited]

Oh man, y'all missed it today

I gave thirteen yellow cards and one red today (in two games) - with about ten of them for dissent

It was incessant, bunch of whining and whinging sore losers who can't understand that the reason they're copping so many free kicks (and hence yellows) is because they're being put to the sword by a better team. It's like, "Well if you spend 87 minutes of the game defending, why are you complaining about not winning any attacking free kicks? Your last bloody attack was 20 minutes ago"

And somehow it's my fault and I'm biased and etc.

I felt bad for not giving more cards away because at like 4-1 down or so, I figured, "Nah, let's not kick them when they're down" but bloody hell I should've continued. I thought I'd be nice but nooooooooooooo

 

Then, in the second game, had a captain literally yell at all of the players on the team that I was wrong and that they shouldn't listen to me

Needless to say, the five minutes after that had about five bookings for that team. Unbelievable.

I gave someone like four warnings about dissent and they sat there with a big 'WTF' on their face after I booked them for it

Then they're sitting there going 'REF WHY ARE YOU WASTING TIME COME ON' while I'm calmly recording the bookings on my notepad

They asked me if I was going to add this time on at the end. I'm like "Nope, you're not the Prems"

They were giving me the hurry up so I told them, "You're damn right I'm wasting time. If you're going to go on like that, then I'm going to waste as much time as I want until you behave yourselves".

I have to say, the last portion of that game was beautiful. Not a peep from them. No more cards. Wonderful.

[Prydzopolis]

On 01/06/2019 at 5:53 PM, CaptainJess said:

I know it’s not the same sport, but hockey shares a lot of similarities to football. 

 We have a green, yellow and red card. A red works the same way in both sports but the green and yellow are different. 

A big change like this needs to come from IFAB but definitely agree that football can learn from other sports on how they deal with indiscipline.

23 hours ago, Wanderboy said:

My problem with this is that refs cop a lot worse than the example I gave and more often than not, do nothing. I see and hear it weekly in my son's 17-1's games.

I do NOT condone any of that. And I never would. I deplore abuse of referees. But surely, coming from a captain of a team, its hardly a hanging offence. We get good and bad refs. As does all sports. A good ref would have called him over and had a quiet word. A bad ref over reacts and sends him to the sin bin. The good refs approach garnishes respect amongst the players. Anyway, just my opinion.

It’s tough, I’m guessing a few things:

- The older (even considerably older) will generally be able to cop more than the younger ones. I put this down to the fact that they’ve been around a lot longer & experienced far worse. I suspect why we seem to have this large number of older referees & many younger to mid aged referees walked away from the game. That experience will affect the way you react in these situations.

- When you say there are good & bad referees, you can say that different referees have different strengths. Not all referees are comfortable speaking to players in fact when I first started refereeing I was told it was better not to speak to players. Some are better at game management, some are better at lotg interpretations, some have better fitness etc etc

- At grassroots level, the better referees will be saved for the prems or div 1’s. The rest it’s a bit of pot luck on who you’ll get, some good & others well...

[Prydzopolis]

14 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Oh man, y'all missed it today

I gave thirteen yellow cards and one red today (in two games) - with about ten of them for dissent

I had one of those last Sunday, seems like it was your turn today

[Paul01]

17 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Oh man, y'all missed it today

I gave thirteen yellow cards and one red today (in two games) - with about ten of them for dissent

It was incessant, bunch of whining and whinging sore losers who can't understand that the reason they're copping so many free kicks (and hence yellows) is because they're being put to the sword by a better team. It's like, "Well if you spend 87 minutes of the game defending, why are you complaining about not winning any attacking free kicks? Your last bloody attack was 20 minutes ago"

And somehow it's my fault and I'm biased and etc.

I felt bad for not giving more cards away because at like 4-1 down or so, I figured, "Nah, let's not kick them when they're down" but bloody hell I should've continued. I thought I'd be nice but nooooooooooooo

 

Then, in the second game, had a captain literally yell at all of the players on the team that I was wrong and that they shouldn't listen to me

Needless to say, the five minutes after that had about five bookings for that team. Unbelievable.

I gave someone like four warnings about dissent and they sat there with a big 'WTF' on their face after I booked them for it

Then they're sitting there going 'REF WHY ARE YOU WASTING TIME COME ON' while I'm calmly recording the bookings on my notepad

They asked me if I was going to add this time on at the end. I'm like "Nope, you're not the Prems"

They were giving me the hurry up so I told them, "You're damn right I'm wasting time. If you're going to go on like that, then I'm going to waste as much time as I want until you behave yourselves".

I have to say, the last portion of that game was beautiful. Not a peep from them. No more cards. Wonderful.

So if you had temporarily dismissals as an avenue (10 minutes for each dissent against a match official), would that have helped?

The best thing about temporary dismissals, especially if given early in the game, usually changes game management to settle the problem team or teans. But there are those teams who never learn. I spoke to the coach of a player who received a temporary dismissal last week today said the same player got another one today.

[Unlimited]

13 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

A big change like this needs to come from IFAB but definitely agree that football can learn from other sports on how they deal with indiscipline.

It’s tough, I’m guessing a few things:

- The older (even considerably older) will generally be able to cop more than the younger ones. I put this down to the fact that they’ve been around a lot longer & experienced far worse. I suspect why we seem to have this large number of older referees & many younger to mid aged referees walked away from the game. That experience will affect the way you react in these situations.

- When you say there are good & bad referees, you can say that different referees have different strengths. Not all referees are comfortable speaking to players in fact when I first started refereeing I was told it was better not to speak to players. Some are better at game management, some are better at lotg interpretations, some have better fitness etc etc

- At grassroots level, the better referees will be saved for the prems or div 1’s. The rest it’s a bit of pot luck on who you’ll get, some good & others well...

Had one of those today as well

Long ball comes in from an attacker. The defender kicks at it but because of spin/bounce/technique, the ball loops up onto an attacking player who was in an offside position when the ball was hit by their attacker.

Anyway, clean through on goal - the attacker scores.

Had a minute or so explaining 'second phase play' and why it is not offside and why what happened is comparable to you deliberately passing the ball back to the attacker

Just now, Paul01 said:

So if you had temporarily dismissals as an avenue (10 minutes for each dissent against a match official), would that have helped?

The best thing about temporary dismissals, especially if given early in the game, usually changes game management to settle the problem team or teans. But there are those teams who never learn. I spoke to the coach of a player who received a temporary dismissal last week today said the same player got another one today.

Depends how it's structured. Overalll, I think it would have helped definitely, if I gave about four of them a TD and they'd be playing 11 v 7. They'd learn very quickly.

[Paul01]

1 hour ago, Wanderboy said:

Both players SHOULD be serving a suspension, although I'm guessing both clubs would be prepared to let this incident fly under the radar. Only reason this will be taken further I think is if there was an Association official present at the game. That I don't know.

Each send-off results in a fine for the club so he clubs won't to report it. 

That said, if club officials were informed they may have their own in-club disciplinary policy but it's usually swept under the carpet.

[mack]

Bit of encroachment watch at the U20's. Go ahead to about 2:45.

Apparently VAR over-turned this penalty save because of keeper encroachment.

Very dodgy.

[alexd]

No different to redmayne against perth......

[mack]

Have a look at around 1:15 and check out that decision.

[Edinburgh]

1 hour ago, mack said:

Have a look at around 1:15 and check out that decision.

I remember that when I first saw it and wondered whether it was correct. While the final contact looks bad with studs showing like that it can also be seen as just the follow through from kicking the ball. Despite the "unnatural" looking final position of the foot it didn't look like there was any attempt or intent to make contact.

I also recall Lisa DeVanna getting a yellow after simply slipping when kicking the ball and making minor contact.

[sonar]

1 hour ago, mack said:

Have a look at around 1:15 and check out that decision.

Have to feel sorry for the RSA defender there. At first glance she kicked the ball and it was the follow through that caused the raised foot. (she was obviously trying to hoof it downfield). What was she supposed to do.?

Personally I think it was the wrong call as I've seen countless similar examples in games ....men and women .... and where no action is taken It will be interesting to see if any similar decisions are made.

[Paul01]

21 minutes ago, sonar said:

Have to feel sorry for the RSA defender there. At first glance she kicked the ball and it was the follow through that caused the raised foot. (she was obviously trying to hoof it downfield). What was she supposed to do.?

Personally I think it was the wrong call as I've seen countless similar examples in games ....men and women .... and where no action is taken It will be interesting to see if any similar decisions are made.

 there is no distinction with studs up contact above the foot is a send off. The severity of the punishment is determined by type of tackle, longer suspension for two-footed leg breaker.

[mack]

It was a second yellow so it wasn't a straight send off so they didn't think it was 'that bad' it just happened to be in the penalty area and a 2nd yellow.

The first spanish goal was also stupid, apparently the new handball rules means if you have your hands in front of your chest that's an "un-natural" position even if the ball got kicked into you path from a meter away.

[sonar]

I grant there are those on here who have more knowledge about the rules than myself but I am struggling to understand how a player who clearly gets full contact with the ball first can be held responsible for how a attacking player positions themselves. I have no doubt that there was contact with the studs but as I said before I've seen this happen in HAL games where a player has made contact with the ball first and then made contact with an opposition player and ....nothing. First time I've seen a penalty. 

[Paul01]

30 minutes ago, sonar said:

I grant there are those on here who have more knowledge about the rules than myself but I am struggling to understand how a player who clearly gets full contact with the ball first can be held responsible for how a attacking player positions themselves. I have no doubt that there was contact with the studs but as I said before I've seen this happen in HAL games where a player has made contact with the ball first and then made contact with an opposition player and ....nothing. First time I've seen a penalty. 

Don't quote A-league referees in the same paragraph as decent referees.

A-league are beholden to Fox Sports as they keep players on the field who would be sent off a lower levels (Brosque and Grant from the Smurfs), fail to call foul throws to supposedly speed up the game,  fail to penalise players or teams for persistent fouls or fail to penalise at all.

Look what happens to Melb Victory and the Smurfs in the ACL when they are called for fouls they get away with in the HAL.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Paul01
Correction

[Paul01]

Just heard on the Guardian Football Podcast that England are introducing temporary dismissals (sin bins) across all amateur football leagues next season for Dissent against Match Officials.

[Prydzopolis]

2 hours ago, Paul01 said:

Just heard on the Guardian Football Podcast that England are introducing temporary dismissals (sin bins) across all amateur football leagues next season for Dissent against Match Officials.

I find it interesting that they’ve been in the LOTG for at least 2 seasons, yet so many have been reluctant to introduce them. 

On 12/06/2019 at 11:29 PM, sonar said:

I grant there are those on here who have more knowledge about the rules than myself but I am struggling to understand how a player who clearly gets full contact with the ball first can be held responsible for how a attacking player positions themselves. I have no doubt that there was contact with the studs but as I said before I've seen this happen in HAL games where a player has made contact with the ball first and then made contact with an opposition player and ....nothing. First time I've seen a penalty. 

It’s a tough one but at the end of the day it’s about player safety. The game has changed & so has the LOTG to reflect this change.

Why can’t you get the ball & take out the player at the same time? It’s dangerous, when you make your tackle you need to take into account the consequences or the danger you place your opponent. You may have every intention of playing the ball but it is no longer enough.

On 13/06/2019 at 12:00 AM, Paul01 said:

Don't quote A-league referees in the same paragraph as decent referees.

I was told during my referee course that Refereeing at A-League level shouldn’t be compared to grass roots Refereeing especially when it comes to careless, reckless & excessive force. When it comes to these games, it is about putting on a show, keeping 22 players on the field & the contest. Player safety is not the primary focus as it is at grass roots level.

[Paul01]

9 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

I was told during my referee course that Refereeing at A-League level shouldn’t be compared to grass roots Refereeing especially when it comes to careless, reckless & excessive force. When it comes to these games, it is about putting on a show, keeping 22 players on the field & the contest. Player safety is not the primary focus as it is at grass roots level.

Heard this from KGJ at our Branch Meeting earlier in the season.

This is an utter crap approach as it makes it difficult for those of who choose to officiate.

Refereeing should  be the same at all levels. 

[sonar]

25 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

I find it interesting that they’ve been in the LOTG for at least 2 seasons, yet so many have been reluctant to introduce them. 

It’s a tough one but at the end of the day it’s about player safety. The game has changed & so has the LOTG to reflect this change.

Why can’t you get the ball & take out the player at the same time? It’s dangerous, when you make your tackle you need to take into account the consequences or the danger you place your opponent. You may have every intention of playing the ball but it is no longer enough.

I was told during my referee course that Refereeing at A-League level shouldn’t be compared to grass roots Refereeing especially when it comes to careless, reckless & excessive force. When it comes to these games, it is about putting on a show, keeping 22 players on the field & the contest. Player safety is not the primary focus as it is at grass roots level.

I would interested to know if anyone who is a ref on this forum has ever given a red for the same thing that happened in the RSA game.?

I didn't carry on with refereeing because I had zero patience with deliberate foul play. I hated the holding /shirt pulling/ cynical fouls to stop play etc and I carded every instance. Got tired of the abuse by coaches and players so I basically said **** it...it's not worth it. 

[Prydzopolis]

17 minutes ago, sonar said:

I didn't carry on with refereeing because I had zero patience with deliberate foul play. I hated the holding /shirt pulling/ cynical fouls to stop play etc and I carded every instance. Got tired of the abuse by coaches and players so I basically said **** it...it's not worth it. 

You’re not alone, losing 100’s of referees each year across grass roots. Plenty of the younger referees in 20-30’s just give up. Why would you want to keep giving up your weekends when you just keep getting abused week in week out.

I must admit that I’ve had some shockers this year. I even get frustrated at myself sometimes, frustrated just thinking about it. Probably doesn’t help when it mostly happens to your 5-6th games of the weekend.

People don’t realize that I’ve had a pretty **** time of it of late. I’m really struggling since I got out of hospital beginning of May. Sometimes I think that I should just give it up, was hoping that things would get better with time, hoping that my headaches/migraines wouldn’t have such a big impact (doesn’t help when my last hospital treatment didn’t work) & hoping that things would flow from there.

Oh well, what do you do? Just keep going, the exercise is good for my health & the dollars aren’t too bad but just have to not be so hard on myself I guess. Oh well

[Paul01]

19 minutes ago, sonar said:

I didn't carry on with refereeing because I had zero patience with deliberate foul play. I hated the holding /shirt pulling/ cynical fouls to stop play etc and I carded every instance. Got tired of the abuse by coaches and players so I basically said **** it...it's not worth it. 

I took up refereeing because my eldest son wanted to earn some money and I was the bus driver so to speak

In our branch,  we get 100% support from the association so back our decisions with regard to send-off and incidents when they occur and back back them up with proper disciplinary action.  The association has worked hard to get rid of the bad eggs out there and with temporary dismissals for Dissent, the send-offs have reduced.

With regard to the studs up tackle in the box, I would regard it as serious foul play as the studs contact the leg above the boot and a direct red card is warranted.

I will say that the phrase I hate most is "But I got ball first" after I award a free kick for the player who gets the ball and then commits a studs up tackle in the follow-through. It will always be a foul to the player who was fouled. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Paul01
Added info

[Prydzopolis]

42 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

This is an utter crap approach as it makes it difficult for those of who choose to officiate.

Refereeing should  be the same at all levels. 

Agree but I can understand why this approach is taken. Now with the introduction of VAR, this gap widens. Almost like they need one set of laws for professional & another for grassroots.

[Paul01]

13 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

Agree but I can understand why this approach is taken. Now with the introduction of VAR, this gap widens. Almost like they need one set of laws for professional & another for grassroots.

I disagree. The kids watch the games and expect the referees to give the same officiating to them. Yes, if there is VAR officiating can be differentiated in not calling CLOSE offside but there is no way that abusive language/gestures  serious foul play etc should be dealt with separately. 

I will cite an incident in a Wanderers game against Adelaide. Craig Goodwin clearly tells Oriel Riera to f*** o** WITHIN earshot of the referee.

If I had the centre (which will never happen btw), I would have sent Goodwin off with no qualms. He would have received a 2 week suspension under A-League regs.

However, no saction was given to Goodwin. 

What message does that send?

[SomeGuy1977]

14 hours ago, Paul01 said:

I took up refereeing because my eldest son wanted to earn some money and I was the bus driver so to speak

In our branch,  we get 100% support from the association so back our decisions with regard to send-off and incidents when they occur and back back them up with proper disciplinary action.  The association has worked hard to get rid of the bad eggs out there and with temporary dismissals for Dissent, the send-offs have reduced.

With regard to the studs up tackle in the box, I would regard it as serious foul play as the studs contact the leg above the boot and a direct red card is warranted.

I will say that the phrase I hate most is "But I got ball first" after I award a free kick for the player who gets the ball and then commits a studs up tackle in the follow-through. It will always be a foul to the player who was fouled. 

And yet despite all of this (which I pretty much agree with btw), referees are in very low numbers this season. There just isn’t enough refs to cover the games on Sunday this season. 

I started the same way as you, except it was with my daughter. Did it the last 2 years with her and even with the BS I’d cop, it was somehow worth it and enjoyable for the most part. She had my back and I had hers. She stopped towards the end of last season and it wasn’t anywhere near as fun on my own. I took a break this year.

And that’s no disrespect to the other refs I’ve met over that time either. You’re all great  (mostly  ) and I definitely learned heaps, but you’re a distant second compared to refing  with my girl. 

[Paul01]

1 hour ago, SomeGuy1977 said:

And yet despite all of this (which I pretty much agree with btw), referees are in very low numbers this season. There just isn’t enough refs to cover the games on Sunday this season. 

I started the same way as you, except it was with my daughter. Did it the last 2 years with her and even with the BS I’d cop, it was somehow worth it and enjoyable for the most part. She had my back and I had hers. She stopped towards the end of last season and it wasn’t anywhere near as fun on my own. I took a break this year.

And that’s no disrespect to the other refs I’ve met over that time either. You’re all great  (mostly  ) and I definitely learned heaps, but you’re a distant second compared to refing  with my girl. 

Each association has its issues. Coverage on Sundays in our association is actually higher than last season with some new and returning referees.

I suppose refereeing with your daughter beats being assessed with a a send-off,  a pitch invasion by spectators and a match abandoned all in the one game on a Sunday. 

[SomeGuy1977]

2 hours ago, Paul01 said:

Each association has its issues. Coverage on Sundays in our association is actually higher than last season with some new and returning referees.

I suppose refereeing with your daughter beats being assessed with a a send-off,  a pitch invasion by spectators and a match abandoned all in the one game on a Sunday. 

Ah yes, that one. I never did work out what that clowns problem was and why he needed to run from the other side of the field. And then he wanted to hang around in the car park afterwards (although I’m pretty sure he was looking for the player rather than me). We even talked about that incident at the level 3 course a few weeks later. I apparently handled it well.

In terms of the Sunday coverage though, it doesn’t look better than last year, at least where I’m travelling. I was at hazelbrook a couple of weeks ago chatting to one of the guys doing the prems game and he said numbers seemed down as well. My daughters club (and others apparently) have taken the step of letting teams know if they don’t have an official assigned so they have the time to organise someone suitable (as the home club anyhow). They’re even looking into the idea of an “unofficial referees panel” to help cover games. If they do that, I think they should round up the mouthy players and coaches and throw them into the middle of a tough game. They seem to know everything already. 

[Paul01]

3 hours ago, SomeGuy1977 said:

Ah yes, that one. I never did work out what that clowns problem was and why he needed to run from the other side of the field. And then he wanted to hang around in the car park afterwards (although I’m pretty sure he was looking for the player rather than me). We even talked about that incident at the level 3 course a few weeks later. I apparently handled it well.

In terms of the Sunday coverage though, it doesn’t look better than last year, at least where I’m travelling. I was at hazelbrook a couple of weeks ago chatting to one of the guys doing the prems game and he said numbers seemed down as well. My daughters club (and others apparently) have taken the step of letting teams know if they don’t have an official assigned so they have the time to organise someone suitable (as the home club anyhow). They’re even looking into the idea of an “unofficial referees panel” to help cover games. If they do that, I think they should round up the mouthy players and coaches and throw them into the middle of a tough game. They seem to know everything already. 

The fixture was declared a 0-0 draw.

I found out about the reverse fixture. Senior referee with 7 yellows plus a red to the green team with much whinging.

As to coverage in our association, closer to 85% most weekends for centres except Mother's day and State Cup days.

[Prydzopolis]

22 hours ago, Paul01 said:

I suppose refereeing with your daughter beats being assessed with a a send-off,  a pitch invasion by spectators and a match abandoned all in the one game on a Sunday. 

I had one of those on Saturday. A scuffle on the half time whistle with a 2 reds and a host of yellows. The opposition forfeited the match at half time, thank goodness as I don’t think the second half would have been considered a game of football.

The last thing I wanted to do on Saturday night after dealing with a sick kid, getting him to bed & then writing up my send off report before having to wake up at 6am for Sunday duties. Fun

23 hours ago, SomeGuy1977 said:

Did it the last 2 years with her and even with the BS I’d cop, it was somehow worth it and enjoyable for the most part.

Somehow I find this too, when you get complimented after the game or something similar it makes it worth it. Although my 3 Sunday teams I feel sorry for, had two pretty horrible matches & even I could understand the lip I was copping.

On 17/06/2019 at 10:23 PM, Paul01 said:

I will cite an incident in a Wanderers game against Adelaide. Craig Goodwin clearly tells Oriel Riera to f*** o** WITHIN earshot of the referee.

This is the one thing I hate, the amount of stuff they’ll let the players get away with when it comes to swearing or showing dissent towards the referee. Brusque the worst culprit of them all, makes it difficult to referee at grass roots level where players see it in the A-League & think it’s okay.

[Prydzopolis]

On 17/06/2019 at 10:23 PM, Paul01 said:

I disagree. The kids watch the games and expect the referees to give the same officiating to them. Yes, if there is VAR officiating can be differentiated in not calling CLOSE offside 

Question: How do I get better at judging offsides?

The really close calls I never feel sure about & generally give the advantage to the attacking side. Sometimes I’ll completely miss the best view as I haven’t turned my head quick enough to make a call. What is the best way to deal with these? How do I get better?