The Refereeing Thread

[Davo]

Not sure if it’s related but a lot of teams haven’t come back this year for all age in Blacktown.

They basically had to restructure al the divisions from scratch. My division this year has teams from last years divs 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5.

[Paul01]

32 minutes ago, Davo said:

Not sure if it’s related but a lot of teams haven’t come back this year for all age in Blacktown.

They basically had to restructure al the divisions from scratch. My division this year has teams from last years divs 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5.

Nepean looks like 13 all age men’s  divisions, 2 intermediate men’s and possibly 3 O35s all with varying numbers of teams from 7 to 10 in different divisions.

For the ladies there are  4 AAW and 2 intermediate women’s divisions

[Unlimited]

Like I still fit my uniform but I remember a few seasons ago we changed providers and had to get new everything 

Not sure what’s going on with Blacktown - seems like a bit of a shambles which is a shame

[Paul01]

4 hours ago, Unlimited said:

Like I still fit my uniform but I remember a few seasons ago we changed providers and had to get new everything 

Not sure what’s going on with Blacktown - seems like a bit of a shambles which is a shame

My 4th year of refereeing and no change of uniform provider in that time. 

All Age Mens 11/12 trial game followed by an All Age Women's 1/3 trial game on Sunday.

[Prydzopolis]

There is keeping up with play & making sure you have the best angles with your positioning, then there is this

 

[Prydzopolis]

On 21/03/2019 at 8:18 PM, Unlimited said:

Back to the local leagues - anyone know what's happened to the Blacktown association referees? I sent in an application and haven't heard back. Forked out like $200+ for rego and the Working With Children check (?????) we apparently need now

You’ve needed this on the central coast for some time now, I think I got mine back in 2017

On 21/03/2019 at 9:37 PM, Unlimited said:

Next thing you know, they'll say my uniform is out of date and I need the new one

Was filthy on this one, 2 kit changes in 4 years. Got the first one when I signed up but forked out over $100 for each change. Now have a kanga, umbro & legea kit! Will keep the old ones just in case they decided to change there minds 

[Prydzopolis]

So much to unpack here, how you referee this sequence I have no idea. He has let the first one go, then let the next 6-7 go all of which could have easily been Red but definitely yellows. What a nightmare.

[Paul01]

16 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

So much to unpack here, how you referee this sequence I have no idea. He has let the first one go, then let the next 6-7 go all of which could have easily been Red but definitely yellows. What a nightmare.

First tackle looked like a red, 5 yellows one being a dive, send off with a second yellow. 

So 2 send off reports and then an incident report since the player he sent off refused to leave the field and touched the ref. Say goodbye to his season.

[mack]

Did the ref give himself a red for the elbow right at the end?

[Paul01]

24 minutes ago, mack said:

Did the ref give himself a red for the elbow right at the end?

No. I think it was awkward because he had both cards in his top pockets which usually have Velcro and he trouble with his red card Velcro pocket.

From experience and coaching, I carry the yellow in my top pocket on the right to award a yellow (right hand motion) and red from my left shorts pocket if I have to award a red due to a second yellow (left hand motion). Actually happened on sunday funnily enough (except it wasn't funny for the bloke who got the red card). Giving a straight red from the left works just fine as well.

[theguyyouwishyouwere]

9 hours ago, mack said:

Did the ref give himself a red for the elbow right at the end?

Brosque?

[Paul01]

I have just tried to read the dogs breakfast that is Football NSW on yellow cards and temporary dismissals (sin bin). It it a right mess.

how do record the TD especially when they actually count as yellow but the card is not shown?

can anyone enlighten me as I have 2 Football NSW games on Sunday?

[Unlimited]

19 hours ago, Paul01 said:

I have just tried to read the dogs breakfast that is Football NSW on yellow cards and temporary dismissals (sin bin). It it a right mess.

how do record the TD especially when they actually count as yellow but the card is not shown?

can anyone enlighten me as I have 2 Football NSW games on Sunday?

Just give them yellow cards and skip the sin bin

[Wanderboy]

My sister told me last night that her son was sent to the sin bin last week. He plays in the Sutherland Shire in under 15's div 1. I didn't even know that a sin bin had been introduced to junior football. WTF?

 

Anyway, he was off for 5 minutes. 

His crime? 

One of his team mates was called for a foul. My nephew, who is the captain, said to the ref that decisions need to be equal both ways. Nothing more, nothing less. No swear words of course. Result? Sin Bin.

I wasn't there of course. It could have been more than that. But geez, where is this game heading?

If the game wants to bring in sin bins for issues like this, there'll be no one left on the field before half time ffs.

 

[mack]

10 minutes ago, Wanderboy said:

One of his team mates was called for a foul. My nephew, who is the captain, said to the ref that decisions need to be equal both ways. Nothing more, nothing less. No swear words of course. Result? Sin Bin.

I wasn't there of course. It could have been more than that. But geez, where is this game heading?

If the game wants to bring in sin bins for issues like this, there'll be no one left on the field before half time ffs.

 

Technically that could be seen as dissent and worth a yellow anyway. I'd tell the nephew to stop bothering the referee because they never change their minds and at the top level some of them will hold a grudge if you piss them off.

[Paul01]

1 hour ago, Wanderboy said:

My sister told me last night that her son was sent to the sin bin last week. He plays in the Sutherland Shire in under 15's div 1. I didn't even know that a sin bin had been introduced to junior football. WTF?

 

Anyway, he was off for 5 minutes. 

His crime? 

One of his team mates was called for a foul. My nephew, who is the captain, said to the ref that decisions need to be equal both ways. Nothing more, nothing less. No swear words of course. Result? Sin Bin.

I wasn't there of course. It could have been more than that. But geez, where is this game heading?

If the game wants to bring in sin bins for issues like this, there'll be no one left on the field before half time ffs.

 

Nepean introduced the Temporary Dismissals for adult football last season for Dissent against a match official with a yellow card and 10 minutes on the side line. Result was a 20% reduction in red cards over the season before. 

Nepean have now introduced it for all games played on a full field 5 minutes for u12s to u17s, 10 minutes for adult football.

The issue I have is the Football NSW approach (different to Nepean) is that a yellow is not shown for a TD/sin bin but somehow it counts in the yellow card count. Stupid approach.

[Unlimited]

2 hours ago, Wanderboy said:

My sister told me last night that her son was sent to the sin bin last week. He plays in the Sutherland Shire in under 15's div 1. I didn't even know that a sin bin had been introduced to junior football. WTF?

 

Anyway, he was off for 5 minutes. 

His crime? 

One of his team mates was called for a foul. My nephew, who is the captain, said to the ref that decisions need to be equal both ways. Nothing more, nothing less. No swear words of course. Result? Sin Bin.

I wasn't there of course. It could have been more than that. But geez, where is this game heading?

If the game wants to bring in sin bins for issues like this, there'll be no one left on the field before half time ffs.

 

I'd give a yellow card for that maybe 7 times out of 10, depending on intonation and whether I felt the player was trying to have a go at me

As a referee, I don't tell the players how to play the game. In return, I'd appreciate the players not telling me how to referee.

That said, if your nephew asked nicely, "Why is this foul being called but that other one wasn't?" that would probably be better. 

[Paul01]

26 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

I'd give a yellow card for that maybe 7 times out of 10, depending on intonation and whether I felt the player was trying to have a go at me

As a referee, I don't tell the players how to play the game. In return, I'd appreciate the players not telling me how to referee.

That said, if your nephew asked nicely, "Why is this foul being called but that other one wasn't?" that would probably be better. 

And 15 year olds do tend to mouth off at referees.

I had an Intermediate men's game last weekend with 2 temporarily dismissals to one team for querying, one for querying whether I knew the rules and the other, after I gave decision against his team, for saying that I wasn't watching the same game. Would have loved to have at least one assistant but wasn't to be.

[sonar]

19 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

And 15 year olds do tend to mouth off at referees.

I had an Intermediate men's game last weekend with 2 temporarily dismissals to one team for querying, one for querying whether I knew the rules and the other, after I gave decision against his team, for saying that I wasn't watching the same game. Would have loved to have at least one assistant but wasn't to be.

When I used to ref schoolboys we had one golden rule...agreed to by all coaches........the captains were the only one who could ask for interpretations of the rules.....any dissent by any other player towards the refs decisions was a red and we told all players at the start of the game that would be the case. All it took was four reds ( two per side ) in the first game for people to get with the program. It was really funny at times when you knew a player wanted to give you a gobful....ala Brosque...but thought better of it....lol

[Paul01]

12 minutes ago, sonar said:

When I used to ref schoolboys we had one golden rule...agreed to by all coaches........the captains were the only one who could ask for interpretations of the rules.....any dissent by any other player towards the refs decisions was a red and we told all players at the start of the game that would be the case. All it took was four reds ( two per side ) in the first game for people to get with the program. It was really funny at times when you knew a player wanted to give you a gobful....ala Brosque...but thought better of it....lol

So Brosque retires before temporary dismissals start in the professional leagues. 

[CaptainJess]

I know it’s not the same sport, but hockey shares a lot of similarities to football. 

We have a green, yellow and red card. A red works the same way in both sports but the green and yellow are different. 

A green card is a warning and a temporary dismissal of two minutes is given to the player. The player comes off and sits in a designated spot for that period. Two green cards equals a yellow and that’s five minutes off. The time can also be extended for any misconduct while they’re off.

Multiple yellows and you get a red. Granted, the average game of hockey is shorter than a football game but I think a similar process could go well, especially at an Association level. 

There’s a big problem with refs not wanting to give yellow cards early or soft yellow cards. A green card is a visible warning and it has a consequence. It could be helpful when telling players to pull their heads in. 

We’ve even had talk of a possible black card that would allow an umpire to completely suspend a game for a period of time in cases where there is sufficient abuse or violence from coaches, players or spectators. 

I think taking players off the field for a short period of time has an impact. There’s a consequence for the team and that’s when accountability to your team-mates starts to come into play. 

I’ve watched a fair bit of hockey in the past couple of years and seen one red card. It works. 

[Wanderboy]

Thanks for the replies from current referees.

My problem with this is that refs cop a lot worse than the example I gave and more often than not, do nothing. I see and hear it weekly in my son's 17-1's games.

I do NOT condone any of that. And I never would. I deplore abuse of referees. But surely, coming from a captain of a team, its hardly a hanging offence. We get good and bad refs. As does all sports. A good ref would have called him over and had a quiet word. A bad ref over reacts and sends him to the sin bin. The good refs approach garnishes respect amongst the players. Anyway, just my opinion.

 

Another issue I saw today. I'm interested to hear other people's views.

Son's 17-1's game today, official ref failed to turn up. So, with agreement with the other team, our manager referees the game. He does pretty well. He's a decent bloke and kept things fair. He actually gave the other team 8 free kicks before our team got our first in about the last 10 minutes. He did well not to be seen as being biased and I'm fine with that.

All is good, although typically with 17 y.o.'s, there's a fair bit of banter amongst the players throughout the game. Generally the game is played in good spirit.

In the last minute (and I was timing) there's a bit of push and shove between two players and it quickly descended into a one on one punch up. A serious fight. Players from both sides fly in to stop it, yet they just kept at it, still punching each other while on the ground while other players were trying to pull them apart.

Once order was restored, our manager blew the whistle for full time, which it was. No yellow or red cards. Nothing. My belief is both players should have been shown straight reds yet as he was a fill in ref, he didn't have access to cards.

What is the procedure in this situation?

I'm guessing that if the official ref had turned up, these two players would be spending several weeks on the sideline.

And NO, young Wanderboy wasn't the player involved from our team!!

Edited June 1, 2019 by Wanderboy

[mack]

If you want to get technical the game shouldn't have proceeded without the referee having a yellow & red card (since they are required equipment under the laws).

After that, the ref is the ref and they should follow the laws. Punches = red card.

[Wanderboy]

19 minutes ago, mack said:

If you want to get technical the game shouldn't have proceeded without the referee having a yellow & red card (since they are required equipment under the laws).

After that, the ref is the ref and they should follow the laws. Punches = red card.

I agree. Both players should have been given reds. It was disgraceful.

Yet, this'll probably get swept under the carpet I suspect. Not good enough!!

[Prydzopolis]

On 31/05/2019 at 6:56 PM, Wanderboy said:

One of his team mates was called for a foul. My nephew, who is the captain, said to the ref that decisions need to be equal both ways. Nothing more, nothing less. No swear words of course. Result? Sin Bin.

I’m with unlimited & looky looky, me & Mack agree on something from the LOTG

On 31/05/2019 at 9:08 PM, Unlimited said:

I'd give a yellow card for that maybe 7 times out of 10, depending on intonation and whether I felt the player was trying to have a go at me

100% agree, it’s all about how it’s said but generally it’s a hard line between frustration & “having a go at the referee”. I’m less inclined in general to go to my pocket & more likely to have a quiet chat. It’s also about respect, if you approach a ref in a respectful manner you’re less likely to go for a card or bin.

On 31/05/2019 at 6:56 PM, Wanderboy said:

My sister told me last night that her son was sent to the sin bin last week. He plays in the Sutherland Shire in under 15's div 1. I didn't even know that a sin bin had been introduced to junior football. WTF?

MI wasn't there of course. It could have been more than that. But geez, where is this game heading?

 If the game wants to bring in sin bins for issues like this, there'll be no one left on the field before half time ffs.

I think sin bins are brilliant to be honest, it gives the referee another tool to deal with dissent. I think it’s the one area that drives referees in there droves out of the grass roots game.

At the end of the day, it’s another tool in the locker, stops us reaching for our yellows & reds. I know it might be hard to believe but most of us don’t enjoy sending players off. It’s shown that it works in reducing the amount of red cards & it’s a shame that the roll out has been slow across all associations.

On 31/05/2019 at 9:38 PM, Paul01 said:

Would have loved to have at least one assistant but wasn't to be.

I’d be lucky to get 1 game all season with A/R’s

I cant tell you how much I hate having to make a touch & go offside decision 20 meters away, especially in a tight game. Fellow referees, what do you do for tight calls? Or those that are near impossible to get the right call?

On 31/05/2019 at 7:07 PM, mack said:

I'd tell the nephew to stop bothering the referee because they never change their minds and at the top level some of them will hold a grudge if you piss them off.

I love these comments

When you get the “the referee is out to get us today” or “he is holding a grudge from last time”. I used to think this as a player & spectator but have found that sometimes that’s just the way the game goes. Multiple fouls will go the way of one team, maybe from a different angle I’d see something different or maybe I’ve genuinely made a mistake but I’ve never gone “well they’ve pissed me off all game, that’s it I’m going to call everything against them”.

On 31/05/2019 at 8:57 PM, Paul01 said:

The issue I have is the Football NSW approach (different to Nepean) is that a yellow is not shown for a TD/sin bin but somehow it counts in the yellow card count. Stupid approach.

I guess it makes sense (in a weird sort of way). It still allows you more leeway when Refereeing a game but a TD is still a YC (dissent) so can understand why it’s recorded in the system that way.

[StringerBellend]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/soccer-officials-threaten-to-shut-down-sydney-comp-over-bad-behaviour-20190601-p51ti9.html

Canterbury District 

[mack]

The photo in that article. 

[mack]

Also, how about that garbage handball call in the CL final.

[Paul01]

22 hours ago, Wanderboy said:

Another issue I saw today. I'm interested to hear other people's views.

Son's 17-1's game today, official ref failed to turn up. So, with agreement with the other team, our manager referees the game. He does pretty well. He's a decent bloke and kept things fair. He actually gave the other team 8 free kicks before our team got our first in about the last 10 minutes. He did well not to be seen as being biased and I'm fine with that.

All is good, although typically with 17 y.o.'s, there's a fair bit of banter amongst the players throughout the game. Generally the game is played in good spirit.

In the last minute (and I was timing) there's a bit of push and shove between two players and it quickly descended into a one on one punch up. A serious fight. Players from both sides fly in to stop it, yet they just kept at it, still punching each other while on the ground while other players were trying to pull them apart.

Once order was restored, our manager blew the whistle for full time, which it was. No yellow or red cards. Nothing. My belief is both players should have been shown straight reds yet as he was a fill in ref, he didn't have access to cards.

What is the procedure in this situation?

I'm guessing that if the official ref had turned up, these two players would be spending several weeks on the sideline.

You need to the local associations regulations. Your club competition secretary should know them as not having official referees has been going on for years. In Nepean, each club must have the equipment for an unofficial referee to perform their duties which includes a whistle, pen, red and yellow cards. The unofficial referee must enforce the laws of the Game and award red and yellow cards as appropriate. However, I don't think they write send-off or incident reports.

If there was officially appointed referees, both players would have received red cards for violent conduct (first offence according to Football  NSW is 2 weeks.  The continually punching would have potentially added to their suspension. The melee which followed may have resulted in an abandoned match even it finished in 89th minute. An incident report would have been completed for the abandoned match and whatever disciplinary committee appointed to look at the incident will declare the result of the Game.

As to the appointed referee not turning up, there could be extenuating circumstances such as a car accident, family tragedy or sickness. If we don't turn up to an appointed match without communicating to the Branch before the match we get fined, except if we are hospital in coma!

[Wanderboy]

7 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

You need to the local associations regulations. Your club competition secretary should know them as not having official referees has been going on for years. In Nepean, each club must have the equipment for an unofficial referee to perform their duties which includes a whistle, pen, red and yellow cards. The unofficial referee must enforce the laws of the Game and award red and yellow cards as appropriate. However, I don't think they write send-off or incident reports.

If there was officially appointed referees, both players would have received red cards for violent conduct (first offence according to Football  NSW is 2 weeks.  The continually punching would have potentially added to their suspension. The melee which followed may have resulted in an abandoned match even it finished in 89th minute. An incident report would have been completed for the abandoned match and whatever disciplinary committee appointed to look at the incident will declare the result of the Game.

As to the appointed referee not turning up, there could be extenuating circumstances such as a car accident, family tragedy or sickness. If we don't turn up to an appointed match without communicating to the Branch before the match we get fined, except if we are hospital in coma!

Yep. Agree with everything you have said and figured all that would be the case.

And, in no way was I critical of the official ref not turning up. I always understand there are extenuating circumstances.

I actually wish he had have turned up. Both players SHOULD be serving a suspension, although I'm guessing both clubs would be prepared to let this incident fly under the radar. Only reason this will be taken further I think is if there was an Association official present at the game. That I don't know.

As for abandonment of the game. This really wasn't necessary as time was up and no other players committed any real offence. Like I said, the game was played in pretty good spirit throughout.