The Refereeing Thread

[mack]

On 20/09/2019 at 2:18 PM, sonar said:

Here's one for the refs......scenario : The attacking team has either a) a corner or b) a spot free kick from outside the box. When the ball is in the air an attacking player grabs the arm of a defender and forces it up and into contact with the ball inside the box.......the ref not seeing the arm grab awards a penalty......would VAR overturn it?

A VAR review can look at anything in the laws once the VAR is being used to review the play. They'd see the attacking arm grab and call that foul happening before the handball.

[StringerBellend]

Football is f**ked, just seen a Var in Tottenham Leicester game, they disallowed a Tottenham goal over something that was millimetres 

i guess if it’s consistent  then ok, but I can’t keep up wasn’t it supposed to be clear and obvious? 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by StringerBellend

[matty]

Dermot Gallagher, ex Prem League ref:

"we're talking millimetres but we are talking accuracy.." 

Meh, scrap it. Let the game breathe

[Taurus]

 

[Prydzopolis]

On 20/09/2019 at 9:24 PM, sonar said:

The reason I put it up was I actually saw this happen in a u14/15 ? match at a local park.  The ref awarded a pen...the defending team were livid and were on the brink of walking off....ref said sorry I only saw the hand in the air hit the ball...........so go off and you forfiet the match. I wonder what would of been the case in an FFA Cup match with no VAR.....?

You’d hope that the A/R would have helped? If they are still playing at this time of the season it must be NPL or finals, I’d say all of these games have A/R’s. 

I feel very sorry for the referee here, either his position, speed of the incident or just bad luck from his angle he is unable to see the incident leading to the handball. Happens to all of us, you’ve missed something that everyone else has seen.

What would have happened with no VAR? Would have been a glaring mistake missed by the referee.

On 21/09/2019 at 3:08 PM, mack said:

A VAR review can look at anything in the laws once the VAR is being used to review the play. They'd see the attacking arm grab and call that foul happening before the handball.

VAR can’t be used for everything, it only gets involved in certain scenarios. In saying that, once the penalty is awarded VAR can intervene.

On 21/09/2019 at 10:58 PM, StringerBellend said:

Football is f**ked, just seen a Var in Tottenham Leicester game, they disallowed a Tottenham goal over something that was millimetres 

i guess if it’s consistent  then ok, but I can’t keep up wasn’t it supposed to be clear and obvious? 

I thought after the sterling offside earlier in the season I thought that they weren’t going to over rule for a few mm’s but perhaps I’m incorrect. I think Jonathan Wilson wrote an article detailing how it’s impossible for the current technology to be accurate in the mm’s.

Offside is an arbitrary decision, you’re either on or off. They have software which is able to put down a line to help make a decision. If you allow the goal, the player has scored a goal from an offside position. If you disallow the goal, you open Pandora’s box of what % or allowance do you give for a player in an offside position.

Definitely prefer this than the method used last year in the A-League where it was an educated guess. I remember howls of disapproval for VAR missing an offside in a game we lost by 1 goal at SOP for an offside that was more than a body length.

On 22/09/2019 at 3:51 AM, matty said:

Dermot Gallagher, ex Prem League ref:

"we're talking millimetres but we are talking accuracy.." 

Referees love it, why? Less mistakes. Less games decided by an incorrect call. Makes decision making go from 95% to 99%.

[StringerBellend]

2 hours ago, Prydzopolis said:

You’d hope that the A/R would have helped? If they are still playing at this time of the season it must be NPL or finals, I’d say all of these games have A/R’s. 

I feel very sorry for the referee here, either his position, speed of the incident or just bad luck from his angle he is unable to see the incident leading to the handball. Happens to all of us, you’ve missed something that everyone else has seen.

What would have happened with no VAR? Would have been a glaring mistake missed by the referee.

VAR can’t be used for everything, it only gets involved in certain scenarios. In saying that, once the penalty is awarded VAR can intervene.

I thought after the sterling offside earlier in the season I thought that they weren’t going to over rule for a few mm’s but perhaps I’m incorrect. I think Jonathan Wilson wrote an article detailing how it’s impossible for the current technology to be accurate in the mm’s.

Offside is an arbitrary decision, you’re either on or off. They have software which is able to put down a line to help make a decision. If you allow the goal, the player has scored a goal from an offside position. If you disallow the goal, you open Pandora’s box of what % or allowance do you give for a player in an offside position.

Definitely prefer this than the method used last year in the A-League where it was an educated guess. I remember howls of disapproval for VAR missing an offside in a game we lost by 1 goal at SOP for an offside that was more than a body length.

Referees love it, why? Less mistakes. Less games decided by an incorrect call. Makes decision making go from 95% to 99%.

They love it as it spreads the blame 

I don’t care if the referees loves it, football is for the fans, of which I’m one (a Top Fan I have a Facebook badge to prove it) and I hate it 

Edited September 23, 2019 by StringerBellend

[Edinburgh]

The offside assessment when using VAR only looks at the line(s) real or imaginary in the freeze shot. When it is as close as the Spurs example that isn't enough. Who decides which frame to use? I've seen instances where the ball has already left the boot, that is after the contact, and offside is given. A frame or two earlier and ... ? To me that leaves sufficient doubt for the Spurs example to stick with the original decision as not a clear and obvious error.

[Prydzopolis]

 

[StringerBellend]

Just now, Prydzopolis said:

 

Clattenburg 

is a total twat

[Prydzopolis]

6 hours ago, Edinburgh said:

Who decides which frame to use?

In England, along with the VAR they’ve got a “recording operator” who prepares the footage with the 3D lines who is a special operator of the hawk-eye technology.

[Prydzopolis]

6 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

They love it as it spreads the blame 

I don’t care if the referees loves it, football is for the fans, of which I’m one (a Top Fan I have a Facebook badge to prove it) and I hate it 

My referees comment was in relation to the comment by Dermot Gallagher, PGMOL/referee. Spreads blame? I don’t think it has much relevance when it comes to VAR.

From a referee’s point of view, it’s about getting decisions correct. First & foremost. Blame doesn’t enter the picture, only in the narrative after a game does it come into play. Instead of just blaming the referee, blame can be attributed to the referee or VAR or both!

[Edinburgh]

1 hour ago, Prydzopolis said:

My referees comment was in relation to the comment by Dermot Gallagher, PGMOL/referee. Spreads blame? I don’t think it has much relevance when it comes to VAR.

From a referee’s point of view, it’s about getting decisions correct. First & foremost. Blame doesn’t enter the picture, only in the narrative after a game does it come into play. Instead of just blaming the referee, blame can be attributed to the referee or VAR or both!

I think that's stringer's point!

[Davo]

That Clattenburg column is rubbish. He says we need to accept VAR ruling on an offside by 1.6cm then in the same article dismisses the frame rate question with "we have to accept that this is the best technology available right now".

In the World Cup Mbappe was clocked running at 40km/h (11m/s). HD tv's run at 60 frames per second which means every frame he travels 18.5cm. The VAR pauses the footage when there is contact between a player and the ball, even though the contact lasts over several frames so the error is going to be near half a metre. And he wants us to accept 1.6cm?

[FCB]

On 19/09/2019 at 10:21 PM, Paul01 said:

Ali Reeza confirmed.

Will go down well at the Vuck with Kruse.

apparently the smurfs don’t think much of him either.

hopefully with 3 new referees on the A-league panel, we might get some unbiased decisions. 

this will be the smurfs

After three rounds it will be obvious to everyone just how far away he is from the local refs, and will be asked to ref all games every match day.

[Prydzopolis]

17 minutes ago, FCB said:

After three rounds it will be obvious to everyone just how far away he is from the local refs, and will be asked to ref all games every match day.

I believe he is being put on the fourth official panel, I don’t think we will see him getting many games much like Kate Jacewicz

[matty]

2 hours ago, Davo said:

That Clattenburg column is rubbish. He says we need to accept VAR ruling on an offside by 1.6cm then in the same article dismisses the frame rate question with "we have to accept that this is the best technology available right now".

In the World Cup Mbappe was clocked running at 40km/h (11m/s). HD tv's run at 60 frames per second which means every frame he travels 18.5cm. The VAR pauses the footage when there is contact between a player and the ball, even though the contact lasts over several frames so the error is going to be near half a metre. And he wants us to accept 1.6cm?

This. 

Give a guy on the sideline a flag and get on with the game

[SomeGuy1977]

4 hours ago, Davo said:

That Clattenburg column is rubbish. He says we need to accept VAR ruling on an offside by 1.6cm then in the same article dismisses the frame rate question with "we have to accept that this is the best technology available right now".

In the World Cup Mbappe was clocked running at 40km/h (11m/s). HD tv's run at 60 frames per second which means every frame he travels 18.5cm. The VAR pauses the footage when there is contact between a player and the ball, even though the contact lasts over several frames so the error is going to be near half a metre. And he wants us to accept 1.6cm?

I haven't really followed the details / implementation of the VAR in the EPL, but how how are they using the VAR? Clear and obvious error or is there some other guideline? I don't think 1.6cm is clear or obvious, but that's just me.

Is the VAR just the broadcast stream? I'm sure I read somewhere that VAR has access to higher frame rates than what is broadcast (Hawk-Eye maybe, which can do 300+ FPS I think?), but happy to be told otherwise.  

[Davo]

4 minutes ago, SomeGuy1977 said:

I haven't really followed the details / implementation of the VAR in the EPL, but how how are they using the VAR? Clear and obvious error or is there some other guideline? I don't think 1.6cm is clear or obvious, but that's just me.

Is the VAR just the broadcast stream? I'm sure I read somewhere that VAR has access to higher frame rates than what is broadcast (Hawk-Eye maybe, which can do 300+ FPS I think?), but happy to be told otherwise.  

My understanding is that they aren't applying clear and obvious to offside, they use the cameras and the line to work it out no matter how close it is.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have access to higher speed cameras although that makes it harder to select the correct frame to measure from and in the above example 300 FPS is still half the fame rate you'd need to get precision within 1.6cm.

This is the problem with VAR. It will prevent the obvious howlers which it was originally intended for but you're still going to have arguments over the close ones and there's no easy way to only apply it to the obvious ones.

[Edinburgh]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy1977 said:

I haven't really followed the details / implementation of the VAR in the EPL, but how how are they using the VAR? Clear and obvious error or is there some other guideline? I don't think 1.6cm is clear or obvious, but that's just me.

Is the VAR just the broadcast stream? I'm sure I read somewhere that VAR has access to higher frame rates than what is broadcast (Hawk-Eye maybe, which can do 300+ FPS I think?), but happy to be told otherwise.  

No, its not!

[GunnerWanderer]

Aston villa should have had penalty against arsenal clear cut handball in box in 88th min 

those lose by one goal 

 

nfi how VAR  didn’t give it 

[matty]

2 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

Aston villa should have had penalty against arsenal clear cut handball in box in 88th min 

those lose by one goal 

 

nfi how VAR  didn’t give it 

Apparently it was a Championship referee on VAR duty

Odd

[matty]

Anyway, the issue is the VAR sucks, it's not working anywhere

[Paul01]

On 24/09/2019 at 11:57 PM, matty said:

Anyway, the issue is the VAR sucks, it's not working anywhere

And I heard last night that FFA wondering Jarred Gillett was the VAR for the EPL game between Brighton and Tottenham. 

[Davo]

 

[SomeGuy1977]

On 10/10/2019 at 9:18 AM, Davo said:

 

Sounds a bit like the story "the cause of the server going off line was the cleaner unplugging it so they could vacuum" to me lol

[Prydzopolis]

First match has had it all: 1) Dodgy red card (dogso), 2) New hawkeye offside technology, 3) New handball rule causing dramas (rubbish change)

[tardotz]

37 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

First match has had it all: 1) Dodgy red card (dogso), 2) New hawkeye offside technology, 3) New handball rule causing dramas (rubbish change)

I think we need to get used to this. There are going to be VAR calls in every game. I would say technically most will be correct but this has killed the game as we knew it

[GunnerWanderer]

4 key calls tonight and by the letter of law the ref/var got them alright 

Sydney pen clearly hits his arm with arm away from body - might be tough call in real-time but can live with pen 

the esfc offside goal was marginally off 

the Adelaide goal called offside was dead level therefore play on

the red card somewhat soft but he clearly tugs him back as last man 

the only call they farked up is the foul on the adl player in lead up to the second Sydney goal - happens on a high ball 

 

I was also very pleased that the ref took the VAR advice On some calls much quicker 

i say it was probably the best I can remember the ref and var working I thought overall given the past it was a very good night of officiating 

[wendybr]

That's good to hear.

During the game,  it seemed a bit crazy at times.

[Prydzopolis]

16 hours ago, tardotz said:

think we need to get used to this

Unfortunately yes, but I think it will take some time

13 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

4 key calls tonight and by the letter of law the ref/var got them alright 

Agree with everything there but the red? I’m not so sold, Yes he was last man but the contact didn’t equate to how he fell. Although this is what we are seeing with VAR this year, as long as there is contact or evidence of a “foul” then that’s all that is required to validate the punishment. Almost in all instances it won’t be overturned.