The Refereeing Thread

[matty]

Never asked for var technology, knew it would be a travesty 

[SomeGuy1977]

On 12/01/2020 at 6:44 PM, Edinburgh said:

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/breeze-s-var-verdict-be-careful-what-you-wish-for

Quote

“Every year in the A-League people said ‘it’s the worst standard of refereeing ever’.

“Now that’s been replaced with ‘VAR is killing the game’.

Not replaced, added.

[Prydzopolis]

Had to double check what you said there, no way an ex-referee comes out & makes a negative comment towards current referees.

I’ve being told that referees are a very insular community, anyone who speaks out gets kicked out of the inner circle.

5 hours ago, SomeGuy1977 said:

“Every year in the A-League people said ‘it’s the worst standard of refereeing ever’.

This is hard to disagree, the only overriding factor has been the Iranian referee. He has managed to lift standards in the league, he is literally in a league of his own.

[Paul01]

15 hours ago, Prydzopolis said:

I’ve being told that referees are a very insular community, anyone who speaks out gets kicked out of the inner circle.

That is 100% accurate. 

Happens at all levels. My son was asked to assist an NPL referee for a final in school competition game and did what he always does in our grassroots games, flags fouls and foul throws. He was told that not to call unless the players complain because that is what happens in NPL. The central ref did say that he was making correct calls though

So there is group-think at NPL as well. 

It sucks that the referees across all levels are not enforcing the Laws of the Game consistently across all levels of the game. It really grinds my gears.

[Unlimited]

tbh there is a bit of reason to it

When I refereed some local Prems games, I let a lot go. There is a general expectation that football is a contact sport so there will be contact, there will be barging around and there will be a bit of pushing and shoving. When it gets too much, I call a foul.

Meanwhile, in Division 9 All Age Men’s, if a player so much taps you on the shoulder while you’re in possession, the player basically stops and looks at me with a COME ON REF ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO LET THAT GO look on his face 

And of course if someone comes in with an ill-timed slide tackle, it’s not “oh whoops sorry”, it’s a personal affront to the player and an all in brawl starts and I hear WTF BRO SOME OF US HAVE WORK TOMORROW WTF IS THAT YOU TRYING TO TAKE ME OUT HUH ILL MEET YOU AT THE CARPARK AT HALF TIME YEAH SEE HOW TOUGH YOU ARE THEN

[Paul01]

3 hours ago, Unlimited said:

tbh there is a bit of reason to it

When I refereed some local Prems games, I let a lot go. There is a general expectation that football is a contact sport so there will be contact, there will be barging around and there will be a bit of pushing and shoving. When it gets too much, I call a foul.

Meanwhile, in Division 9 All Age Men’s, if a player so much taps you on the shoulder while you’re in possession, the player basically stops and looks at me with a COME ON REF ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO LET THAT GO look on his face 

And of course if someone comes in with an ill-timed slide tackle, it’s not “oh whoops sorry”, it’s a personal affront to the player and an all in brawl starts and I hear WTF BRO SOME OF US HAVE WORK TOMORROW WTF IS THAT YOU TRYING TO TAKE ME OUT HUH ILL MEET YOU AT THE CARPARK AT HALF TIME YEAH SEE HOW TOUGH YOU ARE THEN

When it's 50:50  No foul

The considerations are

Is it a foul? Yes or no

If it is a foul, is it careless, reckless or excessive force ( plus speed of tackle, point of contact on the opponent, location on the field and any other factor that come into the decision). If you look at the afc considerations,  our Australian NPL and A-league give lip service to them when being assessed for Fifa appointments but routinely fail to apply them locally 

I still want consistency across all Levels of game from Mens dev 12 to A-league. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Paul01
Added info

[Prydzopolis]

34 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

still want consistency across all Levels of game from Mens dev 12 to A-league. 

I have to agree with unlimited on this especially with foul recognition.

Our new Iranian referee has shown that you can let some careless fouls go to let the game breathe. Personally I differ the way I Referee a game depending on whom I referee:

4 hours ago, Unlimited said:

When I refereed some local Prems games, I let a lot go. There is a general expectation that football is a contact sport so there will be contact, there will be barging around and there will be a bit of pushing and shoving. When it gets too much, I call a foul.

The key is that these guys main focus & aim, is that they want to play football. The higher you go up the ladder (theoretically of course). If two players go in hard for a challenge, both will probably get themselves up & accept the outcome.

4 hours ago, Unlimited said:

And of course if someone comes in with an ill-timed slide tackle, it’s not “oh whoops sorry”, it’s a personal affront to the player and an all in brawl starts and I hear WTF BRO SOME OF US HAVE WORK TOMORROW WTF IS THAT YOU TRYING TO TAKE ME OUT HUH ILL MEET YOU AT THE CARPARK AT HALF TIME YEAH SEE HOW TOUGH YOU ARE THEN

I find you generally have some people that need to let off steam & it just so happens to be at your match on the weekend  In saying that, I have seen some pretty despicable challenges at this level & generally especially if it is the type I’ve mentioned above, malice is intended.

So I have to agree with you Paul, yes we need consistency on things handball law, dissent, sin bins but I generally find that the way you’d approach a u6’s game, will be different to a WAA5, which will be different to a AA9’s which will be different to a PL game. You need to adjust your approach especially around foul recognition & how much heat you allow in the game.

Even in a game, I find myself trying to let a game breathe, when the game gets too heated & cards aren’t working, then you start to pick up smaller fouls. You’re not being consistent, but I feel that refereeing has changed now to be more about creating a contest & giving the players a blank canvas. 

I do agree with your point on consistency but I find that teams get to understand your style after a few games. 

[Paul01]

16 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

will be different to a WAA5, which will be different to a AA9’

Of course there is difference. There usually isn't much heat in a WAA5 game compared to any AA game. 

The issue we started is the group think of Australian A-League referees and I introduced NPL referees. It is hard these supposedly better qualified refs do not enforce the LOTG for us at grassroots.

[Prydzopolis]

1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

Of course there is difference. There usually isn't much heat in a WAA5 game compared

You see, you say that but I’ve found that the woman are more clever than men when it comes to fouls & niggly stuff. Much better at the type of stuff that is more covert than just hard & stupid. Heat can develop in different ways.

1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

The issue we started is the group think of Australian A-League referees

Yes, I have been disappointed with our officials this season. Reza has been a sort of Bandaid solution that doesn’t solve problems but makes them look better. The standard of refereeing has been average but so many big blunders.

I’d love to stand up & defend them but all too often I’m dumbfounded at all sorts of things. Certainly makes our job at grass roots that much more difficult.

[Paul01]

35 minutes ago, Prydzopolis said:

The standard of refereeing has been average but so many big blunders.

I have to disagree, the standard is actually poor.

Faghani is an outlier, without him the average out of 10 would be about 3.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Paul01
Correction

[Davo]

Luongo's red card from Aussie referee Gillett rescinded

[Paul01]

42 minutes ago, Davo said:

Luongo's red card from Aussie referee Gillett rescinded

Now they find out that Gillett is a hack

[Edinburgh]

VAR has to go!

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/var-has-turned-premier-league-into-the-hunger-games

[Prydzopolis]

Pre match instructions (Bobby Maddley in a preseason tournament in Tasmania)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAu50vCujIM

[Edinburgh]

18 hours ago, Prydzopolis said:

Pre match instructions (Bobby Maddley in a preseason tournament in Tasmania)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAu50vCujIM

Why do I immediately think that doesn't happen/doesn't happen that way in the a league?

[lloydy136]

jared gillett had a really good game in leeds v reading last night. let the game flow and no stand out mistakes. leeds fans praised him which is unusual. the complaint from the reading coach was that he played advantage too well and they would have preferred the free kicks - if that is the biggest complaint then I reckon you have had a good game.

[Unlimited]

Anyone see the VAR debacle today with Chelsea and Tottenham? Clear stamp given the all clear by VAR

[Prydzopolis]

6 hours ago, Unlimited said:

Anyone see the VAR debacle today with Chelsea and Tottenham? Clear stamp given the all clear by VAR

Wasn’t good, it was cleared by the VAR & the referee played on. Reason immediately after final whistle was “the defender had no where to put his foot”  Not even a yellow card

After some time had passed it was admitted by the PGMOL that the decision was wrong.

The biggest issue they have around VAR in England is that the clubs have told the referees not to use pitch side monitors as it slows down the game too much. As a result, you have incidents like these & the one last week in ChevMun game where a kick out was missed. It’s crazy, on first viewing how anyone could say it’s not clear & obvious SFP shouldn’t be a referee! Luckily didn’t influence the result too much!

[StringerBellend]

On 23/02/2020 at 4:37 PM, Prydzopolis said:

Wasn’t good, it was cleared by the VAR & the referee played on. Reason immediately after final whistle was “the defender had no where to put his foot”  Not even a yellow card

After some time had passed it was admitted by the PGMOL that the decision was wrong.

The biggest issue they have around VAR in England is that the clubs have told the referees not to use pitch side monitors as it slows down the game too much. As a result, you have incidents like these & the one last week in ChevMun game where a kick out was missed. It’s crazy, on first viewing how anyone could say it’s not clear & obvious SFP shouldn’t be a referee! Luckily didn’t influence the result too much!

The biggest problem with var is the epl is it’s bent 

see this mornings game 

 

[Davo]

1 hour ago, StringerBellend said:

The biggest problem with var is the epl is it’s bent 

see this mornings game 

 

Would that be the call where Sigurdsson decided to have a lay down in an offside position between the keeper and the ball rather than get up and continue playing football?

[mack]

This is an obvious red card to me right?

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/03/01/pro-explains-why-joe-willis-hand-ball-nashville-did-not-warrant-red-card

[sonar]

5 minutes ago, mack said:

This is an obvious red card to me right?

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/03/01/pro-explains-why-joe-willis-hand-ball-nashville-did-not-warrant-red-card

That's Vedrans heaven right there.

[Edinburgh]

12 minutes ago, mack said:

This is an obvious red card to me right?

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/03/01/pro-explains-why-joe-willis-hand-ball-nashville-did-not-warrant-red-card

Reading the article and the PRO explanation, I am impressed with the referee's decision to just give a yellow. I struggle to think of a referee here that would have the presence of mind to do that. 

[mack]

I can't see any legitimate reason to say that isn't an obvious goal scoring opportunity. The defender is running backwards toward goal still, he can't use his hands, and it looked to be on target.

Last year Rooney scored a goal from 70 yards out in the MLS with an actual keeper on the edge of the penalty area. This was 70% of the distance, with no keeper!

That explanation just seems like arse covering their referee, just like all those FFA referee Monday articles that never admitted to making a mistake on anything that mattered.

[Davo]

Yeah their explanation is trash. The last paragraph says that you can't send off a player who MAY have stopped a goal, only a player who did stop a goal. This means you can only send someone off if you have 100% certainty that something that didn't happen would have happened. That's an impossibly high bar.

What if a gust changed the path of the ball, or the ball popped mid air, or a Liverpool fan thew a beach ball on the field and deflected the ball? Unless the referee thinks that the shot was off target (he'd have no idea based on his position relative to the shot) then it has to be red.

[btron3000]

On 23/02/2020 at 4:37 PM, Prydzopolis said:

The biggest issue they have around VAR in England is that the clubs have told the referees not to use pitch side monitors as it slows down the game too much. As a result, you have incidents like these & the one last week in ChevMun game where a kick out was missed. It’s crazy, on first viewing how anyone could say it’s not clear & obvious SFP shouldn’t be a referee! Luckily didn’t influence the result too much!

Wait, this doesn't make sense Prydz. You're saying the biggest problem is the clubs have told refs not to use the sideline monitor, but that in this incident it was a clear and obvious error. Don't those two comments contradict each other?

The clubs have it right. Leave it to the man in the box to overrule clear and obvious errors. I'm talking ABSOLUTELY CLEAR. Every week we still get arguments about VAR decisions. This will never stop in a sport where many fouls are a matter of opinion. So the bar to overturn should be VERY HIGH, as in most on-field calls stay except for handballs, offisides, and the occasional obvious foul.

[Prydzopolis]

20 hours ago, btron3000 said:

Wait, this doesn't make sense Prydz. You're saying the biggest problem is the clubs have told refs not to use the sideline monitor, but that in this incident it was a clear and obvious error. Don't those two comments contradict each other?

Exactly it doesn’t make sense, it’s clear & obvious. He should be off.

20 hours ago, btron3000 said:

The clubs have it right. Leave it to the man in the box to overrule clear and obvious errors.

It isn’t a simple as that: The world is attempting to get VAR right, a protocol has been developed that is working world wide & the PL has decided they know best before they had it even trialed.

They were hoping it would waste less time by letting the VAR decide rather than letting the referee run to a monitor. Unfortunately it’s still taking just as long, if not longer by the referee communicating with the VAR. Plus they are getting big decisions wrong.

On 02/03/2020 at 7:45 AM, StringerBellend said:

The biggest problem with var is the epl is it’s bent 

see this mornings game 

Sorry Stringer, it was a right decision (but I wasn’t 100% sure).

Sigo is lying between the ball & keeper in an offside position. You could argue that DdG is wrong footed & would never have made it but the LOTG has changed. A player in that position is considered active offside. Probably one of the decisions with the least amount of certainty around it.

[Prydzopolis]

On 02/03/2020 at 3:25 PM, mack said:

This is an obvious red card to me right?

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/03/01/pro-explains-why-joe-willis-hand-ball-nashville-did-not-warrant-red-card

 

On 02/03/2020 at 4:41 PM, Davo said:

Yeah their explanation is trash. The last paragraph says that you can't send off a player who MAY have stopped a goal, only a player who did stop a goal. This means you can only send someone off if you have 100% certainty that something that didn't happen would have happened. That's an impossibly high bar.

What if a gust changed the path of the ball, or the ball popped mid air, or a Liverpool fan thew a beach ball on the field and deflected the ball? Unless the referee thinks that the shot was off target (he'd have no idea based on his position relative to the shot) then it has to be red.

This is one of the few times that you can rely on a literal word for word from the LOTG & not an interpretation usually found outside it.

If it were to be a red card, it would be “denial of a obvious goal scoring opportunity” or DOGSO. Although it reminds me of those rubbish articles that Ben Wilson used to write to justify plain bad & wrong decisions in the A-League. I have to agree with the article.

There is just too much doubt, is it an obvious goal? Or a probable goal? Do we know where all the defenders are on the field? Is it reasonable to assume that a defender on the 18 yard line may have intercepted? Or how about how accurate players are with shots on goal? What would be xG of a shot from that distance & position on field?

I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be a red but it isn’t such a clear cut decision. As Ed said, it would be a brave referee to make a decision like that

[matty]

It feels like a red, just seriously bad sportsmanship 

[Prydzopolis]

On 04/03/2020 at 7:16 AM, matty said:

It feels like a red, just seriously bad sportsmanship 

How often do we see really bad sportsmanship only punished with a yellow?