Politics Thread

[matty]

Just joined this thread.

 

Firstly, Clive, lol. Queenslanders, double lol.

 

Secondly, westofcentre, freaking smashing it.

 

Thirdly, more Clive please, take the politics elsewhere.

[PaulG23]

Smarty is like me, way to opinionated (My Twitter followers would understand during the election campaign)  ahaha

 

Yes...I noticed.

 

What I'm finding is that not one party aligns with my point of view... early in the campaign I did the "Vote Compass" thing on the ABC website and it showed that I agreed at least 50% of the time with the policies of the Libs/Labour/Greens. So who do you vote for??? (My electorate is Berowra so its a safe Liberal seat! So it wouldn't really matter who I voted for in the House of Reps).

 

I take greater care with my Senate vote and am one of those 1% of people who votes below the line as I don't trust the pre-determined preference deals... I like rewarding candidates I like and putting last the one's I dislike...  my wife hates it though as it always takes 10-15 mins to copy my cheat sheet to the ballot paper.

 

As to the earlier discussion on Debt, I don't have a problem with debt if its going to be used for building infrastructure, however, I do have a problem with going into debt to pay for recurrent (day-to-day) expenditures over a long period of time. Either we need to raise taxes or cut spending, its that simple. We couldn't get away with it, so why should the government.

 

That previous paragraph makes out that I must be a factual person  ... but I do get emotional sometimes too!

[ManfredSchaefer]

There's too much common sense and informed discussion going on folks...can't someone accuse Wendy of being a Communist spy reporting back to the Chinese? Or can't Mack only allow only 5 of us into the thread? Or can't POUMista threaten to sue the Australian newspaper whilst Matty twerks with Kyle & Jackie O?

 

If we're not careful Clive will say that Frank Lowy has buggered this thread and he'll get in a purely 457 visa workforce to post in here

Edited September 14, 2013 by ManfredSchaefer

[Balkanite]

There's too much common sense and informed discussion going on folks...can't someone accuse Wendy of being a Communist spy reporting back to the Chinese? Or can't Mack only allow only 5 of us into the thread? Or can't POUMista threaten to sue the Australian newspaper whilst Matty twerks with Kyle & Jackie O?

 

If we're not careful Clive will say that Frank Lowy has buggered this thread and he'll get in a purely 457 visa workforce to post in here

 

*glad he isnt accused of being a spy, Slowly Slinks away*

[westofcentre]

Clive spent $12 million on his election campaign. When every candidate/ party has $12 million to spend on buying a seat in parliament, then we can pretend it's a democracy...

Lol thats where capitalism comes in. In theory we are a capitalist democratic society even though as you pointed out it is a contradiction and many would argue a myth.

[Balkanite]

 

Clive spent $12 million on his election campaign. When every candidate/ party has $12 million to spend on buying a seat in parliament, then we can pretend it's a democracy...

Lol thats where capitalism comes in. In theory we are a capitalist democratic society even though as you pointed out it is a contradiction and many would argue a myth.

 

 

My Opinion: were a bunch of people who dont know the policies for the parties we vote for.

 

A prime example is a 21 year old guy at my work who mentioned he was voting Liberal, i said to him fair enough which policies made you decide that?

 

His response was "i dont know the policies, that doesnt matter. Rudd ****ed things up"

 

To which i responded so you dont know what your voting for? he looked angry and walked off LoL

[wendybr]

 

Smarty is like me, way to opinionated (My Twitter followers would understand during the election campaign)  ahaha

 

Yes...I noticed.

 

What I'm finding is that not one party aligns with my point of view... early in the campaign I did the "Vote Compass" thing on the ABC website and it showed that I agreed at least 50% of the time with the policies of the Libs/Labour/Greens. So who do you vote for??? (My electorate is Berowra so its a safe Liberal seat! So it wouldn't really matter who I voted for in the House of Reps).

 

I take greater care with my Senate vote and am one of those 1% of people who votes below the line as I don't trust the pre-determined preference deals... I like rewarding candidates I like and putting last the one's I dislike...  my wife hates it though as it always takes 10-15 mins to copy my cheat sheet to the ballot paper.

 

As to the earlier discussion on Debt, I don't have a problem with debt if its going to be used for building infrastructure, however, I do have a problem with going into debt to pay for recurrent (day-to-day) expenditures over a long period of time. Either we need to raise taxes or cut spending, its that simple. We couldn't get away with it, so why should the government.

 

That previous paragraph makes out that I must be a factual person  ... but I do get emotional sometimes too!

 

 

I'm so impressed that we're still going on this thread..

 

Hello  Paul...um yes..taxes... I guess it comes down to who is prepared to pay...how much they're prepared to pay  (without feeling outrage    )......and for what...

 

Hello  Matty... a sharing of diverse ideas is healthy, isn't it?     If we all thought the same, it would be a stagnant, very colourless world.......Besides, a discussion of Clive is so intertwined with politics at the moment, it would be hard to post anything about him without mentioning politics (oh, except if you only wanted to comment on his twerking style, or his dinosaurs...)

[westofcentre]

Clive is an interesting one. In some iinstancs his views are right, in others very left. Ultimatelty I cant shake the feeling that he is in it for his own business interests.

 

But lets look what happened in the last election. Both major parties lost votes to the Palmer party in a similar fashion to how votes were lost to the Greens in the preceeding election.

 

It tells you that Australians are crying out for a party aside from the main two to "keep the bast ards honest".

 

And here is where we go wrong. Australians vote for these parties in the hope they will be like the old Democrats, who will utilise their power in the senate for ideally centrerist outcomes (or outcomes the majority of the population can identify with).

 

The Greens and Palmer Party picked up many votes of people hoping they play this role, and for lack of a better party to do this, or in some instances poor awareness as to what those party stands for.

 

problem is Greens are further left then Labor and Palmer - well we are still trying to work that one out.

Edited September 14, 2013 by westofcentre

[westofcentre]

Ps - we can tell Poumista is busting to let it out lol!

[wendybr]

 

 

 

My Opinion: were a bunch of people who dont know the policies for the parties we vote for.

 

A prime example is a 21 year old guy at my work who mentioned he was voting Liberal, i said to him fair enough which policies made you decide that?

 

His response was "i dont know the policies, that doesnt matter. Rudd ****ed things up"

 

To which i responded so you dont know what your voting for? he looked angry and walked off LoL

 

 

^^^^^    Sadly, I think a significant proportion of the population would be the same.  

 

 And then,  much of the media reinforces this ignorance...dumbs down something as important as our right to contribute to the choice of who governs us to sensationalised rubbish based on, for example, what Rudd did or didn't say to his make-up lady before a television debate (not defending Rudd, by the way -he has a lot to answer for in the way things went for the previous govt IHMO)

[Balkanite]

 

 

 

 

My Opinion: were a bunch of people who dont know the policies for the parties we vote for.

 

A prime example is a 21 year old guy at my work who mentioned he was voting Liberal, i said to him fair enough which policies made you decide that?

 

His response was "i dont know the policies, that doesnt matter. Rudd ****ed things up"

 

To which i responded so you dont know what your voting for? he looked angry and walked off LoL

 

 

^^^^^    Sadly, I think a significant proportion of the population would be the same.  

 

 And then,  much of the media reinforces this ignorance...dumbs down something as important as our right to contribute to the choice of who governs us to sensationalised rubbish based on, for example, what Rudd did or didn't say to his make-up lady before a television debate (not defending Rudd, by the way -he has a lot to answer for in the way things went for the previous govt IHMO)

 

 

Yep, agreed.

 

I just did the political compass quiz and got the below;

 

Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.12

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72

 

Seems like im a Lefty Libertarian!

[wendybr]

Anyone on here a member of GetUp! ??

[Balkanite]

Anyone on here a member of GetUp! ??

 

Define what you mean by member?

 

Edit: Turns out i signed up a while ago but havent done much with it .. i do enjoy the email updates!

[wendybr]

^^^^ You just sign up on line.... haven't checked lately, but I think there are over 500,000 members. Worth a look if you are of a "progressive" inclination. 

[Balkanite]

^^^^ You just sign up on line.... haven't checked lately, but I think there are over 500,000 members. Worth a look if you are of a "progressive" inclination. 

 

seems like memberships have risen!

JOIN THE MOVEMENT OF 636,640 AUSTRALIANS

[wendybr]

 

^^^^ You just sign up on line.... haven't checked lately, but I think there are over 500,000 members. Worth a look if you are of a "progressive" inclination. 

 

seems like memberships have risen!

JOIN THE MOVEMENT OF 636,640 AUSTRALIANS

 

^^^^   Indeed... Until WSW, I mainly used a computer for word processing and the occasional bit of research. The only "online communities"  I related to were GetUp! and some environmental groups...and I certainly didn't spend very much time on their websites (compared to the amount of time I've spent on the forums here!!!!)

 

I have found that when wishing to tune in to people with similar values as mine, GetUp! has been great. They mount online petitions on a whole range of issues - some I don't connect to, most I do.  I predict that memberships will rise further when people on the left side of politics feel as though their values are not being reflected by their government (as is going to be the case for the next few years under the new government).

 

At least you can feel a sense of camaraderie with a lot of other people, and feel as though you can still be part of a collective voice.

[westofcentre]

 

 

The problem we have today is that our capitalist free market system makes it difficult to cater for many environmental concerns.

 

it has made its way into the corporate world through the wishy washy "friend of the environment" mentality but for most corporations it means very little.

 

Environmtal initiatives are costly. The free market then shys away from it, as do consumers (well most anyway), or if they are floated (carbon pricing) the price ultimately crashes because it is in a sense an inflated manufactured market.

 

Dont know the answer. I am not convinced the free market can factor in good environmental governance.

 

The issue here too is you have both sides of the spectrum - conservatives and greens almost running fear campaigns.

 

I studied enviro science at uni. And I am still not convinced say about man made global warming.

 

Now I am not stupid enough to think humans cant change the environment. We punched a hole through the ozone layer for crying out loud.

 

but climate changes and fluctuates over time. Humans account for only 3% of all carbon released into the atmosphere.

 

Australia makes up less then 1% of the 3% thus the carbon tax is a moral issue rather then a practical issue. The increase in Chinas carbon ommission in one year alone is more then Australia's entire carbon output.

 

for you to believe that humans are warming the planet you need to accept that its that man made 3% that is making the difference.

 

not impossible offcourse. It may well have an impact. But as someone who has studied the issue I can honestly say I really dont know!

Edited September 14, 2013 by westofcentre

[westofcentre]

Ps for those intested check out my other thread on mining in Western Sydney.

 

Not only an environmental concern but one that affects our beloved WS as well.

[smarty]

3% is huge when it comes to the atmosphere.. I don't think anyone who is a climate change denier could be considered a credible scientist.

[smarty]

Anyone on here a member of GetUp! ??

Yep, and if my local ALP candidate didn't need all the help he could get I'd have electioneered for them last weekend instead!

[wendybr]

 ^^^^^   Onya Smarty!!

 

Westofcentre....  Yes coal seam mining  affects much of the country I think. It's worrying if intrudes into Western Sydney....and into prime agricultural regions of the country!!  I 've read much of what you've posted on that thread...thought you must have been a "greenie"!!  

 

Re climate change...yes it is a moral issue.  I'm not a climate scientist, quite obviously, but I'm prepared to trust the vast bulk of climate scientists, and the scientific community as a whole to know more about the issue than I do (and than Alan Jones and co. do).   I just feel that we can't go on our merry way into the future as we've done, EVEN IF there's a only a partial risk that our actions are contributing to the change that is (according to the scientists) now beyond dispute.

 

Per head, we Aussies have contributed more to the problem than almost any other nation on Earth.

 

Sigh...not an easy issue...It's one I've worried about since watching Soylent Green back in the 70s LOL!!!!   (showing my age now!!!)  It brought relief to think we were FINALLY trying to do SOMETHING about it 12 months ago....it now brings great sadness to have those hard won attempts to do SOMETHING  being abandoned.  

[wendybr]

3% is huge when it comes to the atmosphere.. I don't think anyone who is a climate change denier could be considered a credible scientist.

 

^^^^   Plus it's increasing at an alarming rate year by year!

[westofcentre]

Yes good points guys. I am not a practising Scientist so not an authority.i try to read as much as possible and when it comes to this issue am uncertain.

 

 

I do though agree with Malcom Turnbulls sentiments who said when it comes to climate change we have to give the earth the benefit of the doubt.

 

Lol not a greenie. I think in theory Green policy sounds good and alot should be inplemented but much of it would also destroy our economy.

 

I do beleieve in been economically and environmentally responsible and finding that balance.

 

As many of you out there I work in the business world, and can see the results of poor policy on businesses amd subsequent flow through to the workers.

 

this is why sometimes I am at odds with many unions. They often seek short term gain for the workers, but will ultimately end up hurting them in the long run.

 

 

They are meant to protect the workers. I have seen some workplaces where union influence becomes so strong the work place becomes inefficient then runs into difficulties and can become unviable. They can be corrupt and make it near impossible to fire and incompetent worker whose lack of commitment may be hurting other workers and their families.

 

its all about balance. In other instances you need unions as they are a pressure group and ensure workers wages keep up with cost of living.

Edited September 15, 2013 by westofcentre

[theguyyouwishyouwere]

 

3% is huge when it comes to the atmosphere.. I don't think anyone who is a climate change denier could be considered a credible scientist.

 

^^^^   Plus it's increasing at an alarming rate year by year!

 

 

you know climate change is a natural thing as well.

 

a lot of people are in the "oh climate change doesn't exist" group, or the other, which is just as black and white the  "climate change is 100% man's fault" group. the earth goes in cycles of warm periods (what we're approaching now) and cold periods (ice ages [lol at the little squirrel thing that just can't get his nut]). 

 

evidence shows the planets temperature is climbing due to natural causes, but its being greatly assisted by man. So if man still lived in caves would there still be climate change? yes. but it would not be accelerating as fast as it is. 

 

all in all i believe this blaming the whole climate change fear and panic on human activity is a little narcissistic. 

[Balkanite]

 

 

3% is huge when it comes to the atmosphere.. I don't think anyone who is a climate change denier could be considered a credible scientist.

 

^^^^   Plus it's increasing at an alarming rate year by year!

 

 

you know climate change is a natural thing as well.

 

a lot of people are in the "oh climate change doesn't exist" group, or the other, which is just as black and white the  "climate change is 100% man's fault" group. the earth goes in cycles of warm periods (what we're approaching now) and cold periods (ice ages [lol at the little squirrel thing that just can't get his nut]). 

 

evidence shows the planets temperature is climbing due to natural causes, but its being greatly assisted by man. So if man still lived in caves would there still be climate change? yes. but it would not be accelerating as fast as it is. 

 

all in all i believe this blaming the whole climate change fear and panic on human activity is a little narcissistic. 

 

 

^^ clearly ignorant on the topic .. i mean quotes squirrels who cant get nutts?

 

ahahaha

[westofcentre]

Yes it is quite complex. One of the main jet stream currents though that passes near Britain is slowing down. Currents affect whether.

 

Some Scientists now actually believe that the warming cycle will end abruptly before going into a cold snap.

 

One trigger will be the cesation of this current which is being slowed by the increase in fresh water flowing into the ocean from melting ice burgs.

 

so theory basically says that there is gradual warming of the planet before abrupt triggers plunge it into an ice age.

 

who knows if it will happen. One of many theories floating about I guess.

Edited September 15, 2013 by westofcentre

[smarty]

 

 

3% is huge when it comes to the atmosphere.. I don't think anyone who is a climate change denier could be considered a credible scientist.

 

^^^^   Plus it's increasing at an alarming rate year by year!

 

 

you know climate change is a natural thing as well.

 

a lot of people are in the "oh climate change doesn't exist" group, or the other, which is just as black and white the  "climate change is 100% man's fault" group. the earth goes in cycles of warm periods (what we're approaching now) and cold periods (ice ages [lol at the little squirrel thing that just can't get his nut]). 

 

evidence shows the planets temperature is climbing due to natural causes, but its being greatly assisted by man. So if man still lived in caves would there still be climate change? yes. but it would not be accelerating as fast as it is. 

 

all in all i believe this blaming the whole climate change fear and panic on human activity is a little narcissistic. 

 

It's not narcissistic, you can see the history of greenhouse gases active in the atmosphere by analysing iceberg composition in Antarctica and yes, it's true that climate change is always occurring, but hasn't been "accelerating", it's just a cycle that will always continue. 

 

Human activity has caused a huge increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and this will not be cyclical - it will always be there. The Earth can recover from its own cycles of climate change but not ours.

[theguyyouwishyouwere]

 

 

 

3% is huge when it comes to the atmosphere.. I don't think anyone who is a climate change denier could be considered a credible scientist.

 

^^^^   Plus it's increasing at an alarming rate year by year!

 

 

you know climate change is a natural thing as well.

 

a lot of people are in the "oh climate change doesn't exist" group, or the other, which is just as black and white the  "climate change is 100% man's fault" group. the earth goes in cycles of warm periods (what we're approaching now) and cold periods (ice ages [lol at the little squirrel thing that just can't get his nut]). 

 

evidence shows the planets temperature is climbing due to natural causes, but its being greatly assisted by man. So if man still lived in caves would there still be climate change? yes. but it would not be accelerating as fast as it is. 

 

all in all i believe this blaming the whole climate change fear and panic on human activity is a little narcissistic. 

 

It's not narcissistic, you can see the history of greenhouse gases active in the atmosphere by analysing iceberg composition in Antarctica and yes, it's true that climate change is always occurring, but hasn't been "accelerating", it's just a cycle that will always continue. 

 

Human activity has caused a huge increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and this will not be cyclical - it will always be there. The Earth can recover from its own cycles of climate change but not ours.

 

 

what i meant by narcissistic is that people have a somewhat unjustifiable belief that they influence everything around them, and they do to a point - but where's the evidence? yes humans are affecting the climate, but by how much or how little is impossible to determine. take for instance the jehovah's witnesses. they have been around 100 years or so? always believed they are at the brink of the apocalypse, and they keep pushing the date back, to justify they're existence and importance. people want to be more important than they are, when really we are just an insignificant little speck on the history of this planet, let alone this universe.

 

worldwide frog species are going extinct at an alarming rate and people can only speculate why, they can't provide definitive answers. is it climate change? is it pollution? is it disease? is it the predator/prey balance gone out of whack? all science can provide is best guess as to what is causing the problem. for all we know its little invisible aliens that harvest amazonian frog testicles to enhance their sex lives. 

 

how long have people kept accurate scientific records, and actually understood what they meant? 200, 300 years for some of the more complex stuff at most? homo sapiens has existed for 100,000 years or so. agriculture 10,000 years ago, and reached advanced intelligence when the first iPod was released. and it could all end tomorrow. and the planet will recover. when the comet/asteroid hit the gulf of mexico 65 million years ago what happened? dust, greenhouse effect on an incredible scale,sudden ice age then flat screen tv's showing infomercials about crap we don't need.

 

the earth has been around for 6-7 billion years. to think that people can **** it for good is a pretty ****ed up and "narcissistic", because its been through a hell of a lot worse, and it it will go through a hell of a lot more when we're gone. 

 

we don't need to "save the planet" because in the grand scheme of things - we are small scratch on a CD that makes a song skip for a fraction of a second, and in the end the cd is still playable.

 

but don't get me wrong,im not saying the carbon emissions and pollution and radioactive waste is ok - because it's not. Just because the planet will recover, doesn't mean we will. doesn't mean our children and our children's children will. and that's why we as the "guardians" of the planet have to look after it, not for the planet's sake - but for our sake, for our species and the species that will evolve from our species' sake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and clive palmer is soooooo faaaaattt

[smarty]

ok you seem to have the right idea at the end of everything lol, but the records come from carbon dioxide analysis in antarctica, it's accurate since the beginning of the earth 

[Tranquilo]