Football Media Discussion 2

[sonar]

If a business wants free labour via internships but still wants the profits/monetary savings the free work/labour provides to the organisation then they pay a higher rate of company tax.  Pay the worker or pay the govt who most probably has to support the worker via welfare.

Edited August 28, 2019 by sonar

[matty]

I can't agree with that sonar. There are parrelels with receiving welfare while studying. You could argue the intern will pay their due when they start working and seeing as it's usually a lucrative role, it'll be plenty. The amount of people coming out of uni with random arts degrees - that cost the tax payer tens of thousands - and will never do anything with it, is chronic. 

Anyway, good chat but

off topic... 

[Hughesy]

Mack and Sonar you guys are missing the point here - we are talking about elite sport. This is not an industry where any tom, dick or harry can waltz into a role just because they have a piece of paper with their name on it. Elite sport and high performance personnel need to be the cream of the crop because it’s all about results and it’s the cream of the crop you’re working with. This isn’t like a commerce degree where you take up a graduate role and slowly work your way through the company to CEO. It’s tough, often not a nice environment to work in and positions are limited yet desired by many. There is a reason why few people have involvement in the performance side of elite sport.

Keep in mind also that graduates have studied their high performance sport degrees being told regularly throughout the course how hard finding paid work is. The general public aren’t aware of this hence why there is so much outrage.

[sonar]

5 minutes ago, hughsey said:

Mack and Sonar you guys are missing the point here - we are talking about elite sport. This is not an industry where any tom, dick or harry can waltz into a role just because they have a piece of paper with their name on it. Elite sport and high performance personnel need to be the cream of the crop because it’s all about results and it’s the cream of the crop you’re working with. This isn’t like a commerce degree where you take up a graduate role and slowly work your way through the company to CEO. It’s tough, often not a nice environment to work in and positions are limited yet desired by many. There is a reason why few people have involvement in the performance side of elite sport.

Keep in mind also that graduates have studied their high performance sport degrees being told regularly throughout the course how hard finding paid work is. The general public aren’t aware of this hence why there is so much outrage.

I get and understand your point of view......I just don't agree with it.

[matty]

Actually I got a mate that wanted to be an archetect (draft person or something?). About 15 years ago. He couldn't break into the industry so he mass emailed several firms (?) offering to rock up for three months, unpaid. One accepted, surprise surprise, after the 3 months, they offered him a position. I admired him plenty for that 

[Burgerman]

 

Haha that reminds me of this 😂

[DinoPresinger]

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned much is that the role offered by SFC was most likely illegal. Considering it was 20 hours a week for 9 months doing work that is crucial to the business it would almost certainly be considered an employment relationship by the FWC. Employees must be paid at or above minimum wage by law.

I reckon SFC took it down both for PR reasons but also because they got advice that it's probably illegal.

I think it's wrong to not pay people for their labour unless you are a charity or they're not doing anything that can generate revenue/reduce costs.

If someone is good enough to do a job for free they're good enough to be paid at least minimum wage for it.

[Hughesy]

Exercise and Sports Science Australia (ESSA) who are the governing body of Sport Science and Exercise Physiology released a statement announcing that they will be formulating guidelines to provide a framework for what is considered reasonable in regards to internships and unpaid work in the industry.

I'm still surprised by the reaction to this particular position listing when it has been happening for a while now. It sounds dramatic but this could potentially result in a huge shake up to the industry. Time will tell.

[mack]

Depends on who writes the guidelines. If it's the people who own the sports clubs that want free workers, then the guidelines will be loose and then ignored anyway.

[dcrow]

If someone is willing to work for nothing while gaining experience and probably working for the club and players they love, that's their choice. No one is holding a gun to their head.

[btron3000]

13 hours ago, DinoPresinger said:

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned much is that the role offered by SFC was most likely illegal.

Yep.

Hughsey said that Mack and Sonar are missing the point. I would argue it is him and Jess. 

Just because you guys worked - note the word used here - for free doesn't mean it's right. Saying "it's elite sport" is an excuse, there are plenty of industries and roles where you need to be "elite".  If it's competitive that's cool, but those who get the opportunities should be getting paid. There is NO difference in the selection of people whether or not you are paying them a small wage or not paying them, the only difference is the money.

I researched traineeships and the like a few years ago and it is ILLEGAL to have a free role where the organisation benefits from your work more than you. And the "benefit" is not some long-term ambiguous test, it is "are you doing work for the organisation or learning". If they have you doing tasks rather than actually moving around shadowing people and soaking up info, then it is illegal. Given it was 38 hours per week for a whole season, I seriously doubt how this would qualify as legal.

Yeah heaps of industries do it, but it doesn't make it right. A big company, I think NRMA (hmmmm) are currently being taken to Fairwork for their internships. I hope they get their arses kicked. As stated above, it brings down the wages of everyone. Minimum wage is set for a reason, undermine it and we are on our way to an American societal structure where we have huge differences between rich and poor. Australia was built on equality and ensuring the worst off amongst us is not that badly done by.  All these things are interconnected and this kind of stuff is dangerous on a macro scale.

tldr: the smurfs are twats

[btron3000]

33 minutes ago, dcrow said:

If someone is willing to work for nothing while gaining experience and probably working for the club and players they love, that's their choice. No one is holding a gun to their head.

Nonsense. People are in a situation where they feel they have to do it. This kind of thinking is why people get taken advantage of in all walks of life. Using people's desperation to effectively force them to work is slavery. This kind of attitude from the "owners of capital" is the reason why the employees banded together and striked and created unions etc.

Now that the unions power is getting stripped away, the employers are emboldened to push the boundaries again.

[btron3000]

6 hours ago, hughsey said:

Exercise and Sports Science Australia (ESSA) who are the governing body of Sport Science and Exercise Physiology released a statement announcing that they will be formulating guidelines to provide a framework for what is considered reasonable in regards to internships and unpaid work in the industry.

I'm still surprised by the reaction to this particular position listing when it has been happening for a while now. It sounds dramatic but this could potentially result in a huge shake up to the industry. Time will tell.

They don't need to write their own bloody guidelines. They just need companies to obey the law. lol

Whether or not is has been going on for ages, it is wrong. The reason this has blown up in here is because it's the A-league and we follow it. Not a single person at my work would know about this. And that's what the employers want. People who either don't know about it or who accept it because they feel they have to.

[btron3000]

On 28/08/2019 at 5:52 PM, matty said:

I can't agree with that sonar. There are parrelels with receiving welfare while studying. You could argue the intern will pay their due when they start working and seeing as it's usually a lucrative role, it'll be plenty. 

Except that for every Jess and Hughsey, there are dozens of people who get shunted around organisations doing work and then get punted, so they can't "pay their due" afterwards.

[dcrow]

8 hours ago, btron3000 said:

Nonsense. People are in a situation where they feel they have to do it. This kind of thinking is why people get taken advantage of in all walks of life. Using people's desperation to effectively force them to work is slavery. This kind of attitude from the "owners of capital" is the reason why the employees banded together and striked and created unions etc.

Now that the unions power is getting stripped away, the employers are emboldened to push the boundaries again.

People get taken advantage of because they put themselves in a situation where they believe they have nothing else but if you look at this situation in particular nothing is stopping them from walking away from an internship. They are not waiting for their weekly paycheck. You think about it this way, people pay 10's of thousands of dollars to spend there so called working hours obtaining a degree while someone who's working for an internship is gaining valuable experience for nothing.

With the unions, they can swing both ways, either causing employees to overpaid while company requires government grants to survive eg: Ford and Holden, or like you said a company taking advantage of an employee.

People have choices, if they are strong enough mentally they will break through any barriers required to obtain their goals. It's all about believing in yourself. As the great Earl Nightingale said "you become what you think about"

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by dcrow

[btron3000]

1 hour ago, dcrow said:

People get taken advantage of because they put themselves in a situation where they believe they have nothing else but if you look at this situation in particular nothing is stopping them from walking away from an internship. They are not waiting for their weekly paycheck. You think about it this way, people pay 10's of thousands of dollars to spend there so called working hours obtaining a degree while someone who's working for an internship is gaining valuable experience for nothing.

With the unions, they can swing both ways, either causing employees to overpaid while company requires government grants to survive eg: Ford and Holden, or like you said a company taking advantage of an employee.

People have choices, if they are strong enough mentally they will break through any barriers required to obtain their goals. It's all about believing in yourself. As the great Earl Nightingale said "you become what you think about"

 

 

I can see that point of view and in general I get that if you want something bad enough you’ll work you arse off to get it, but I don’t agree with that here, I think there are bigger pictures at play as outlined by me and others above.

[Generator]

The other point being missed here is that unpaid internships are also more likely to benefit those who have other forms of support or existing wealth - it’s a lot easier to work for free and “be strong enough mentally to break through” when you’re not constantly worried about your finances.

[btron3000]

1 hour ago, Generator said:

The other point being missed here is that unpaid internships are also more likely to benefit those who have other forms of support or existing wealth - it’s a lot easier to work for free and “be strong enough mentally to break through” when you’re not constantly worried about your finances.

Yes, brilliant point. Probably the most important factor of all. They just ingrain established social advantage.

[marron]

10 minutes ago, btron3000 said:

Yes, brilliant point. Probably the most important factor of all. They just ingrain established social advantage.

ESFC

[StringerBellend]

 

2 hours ago, Generator said:

The other point being missed here is that unpaid internships are also more likely to benefit those who have other forms of support or existing wealth - it’s a lot easier to work for free and “be strong enough mentally to break through” when you’re not constantly worried about your finances.

Exactly, this also ties in with the Tories removal of free tertiary education and their defunding of public schools.

It all entrenches the wealthy at the top and removes social mobility.

This applies in all industries, 

Much easier if 

private school so you can get the grades to get into uni 

uni fees paid for, and live close to campus

Don't need to work and study so focus on study

Don't need to work so you can do all the unpaid work you like for years to get the experience (with companies from the family network)

Bit harder when you need to work to earn money.

To a point "a strong mentality" can get you through, I know for me it did, I  studied and worked etc, and commuted stupidly long distances, but unfortunately it has probably got harder if anything since my day. Also I at least had stable family etc. there are those, who don't have that.

 

4 hours ago, dcrow said:

 

People have choices, if they are strong enough mentally they will break through any barriers required to obtain their goals. It's all about believing in yourself. As the great Earl Nightingale said "you become what you think about"

 

 

Some have more choices than others, as above 

The Tory its all the individuals fault 

[Hughesy]

If the government don’t sort out the Allianz rebuild, Sydney may be looking for some ‘volunteer’ builders soon 😂

[StringerBellend]

9 hours ago, hughsey said:

If the government don’t sort out the Allianz rebuild, Sydney may be looking for some ‘volunteer’ builders soon 😂

Can’t see them doing a FC Union Berlin myself

Edited September 1, 2019 by StringerBellend

[btron3000]

Looks interesting 

 

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/when-soccer-died-new-doco-to-lift-the-lid-on-australian-football

[Hughesy]

If it’s an objective depiction of events that unfolded then it could be good. The title doesn’t fill me with confidence though - sounds like it could be a big NSL bitter fest...

[Edinburgh]

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/football/a-league/aleague-in-talks-to-show-games-in-prime-time-freetoair-deal/news-story/663134fd5f7b9b3e4fc68ebb50bf1fed

[Paul01]

14 minutes ago, Edinburgh said:

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/football/a-league/aleague-in-talks-to-show-games-in-prime-time-freetoair-deal/news-story/663134fd5f7b9b3e4fc68ebb50bf1fed

Is this the story? If so, no ads

A-League games will be shown on prime time free-to-air TV for the first time under a new deal being negotiated with the ABC by club owners ahead of the new season.

Saturday games at 5.15pm would be broadcast on both ABC1 and Fox Sports if the deal is agreed by all parties, giving the competition access to its biggest potential free-to-air audience.

Though some details of the deal still have to be ironed out, The Daily Telegraph understands that the various stakeholders involved are positive about the deal, with hopes it will be signed off well before the new season kicks off on October 11.

The proposed deal is the first significant move by the A-League club owners after they took control of the competition on August 1, even though the legal separation of the competition out of Football Federation Australia is still not complete.

Talks with the ABC began after a mooted deal with the Ten Network — which would have involved two games being shown exclusively on Ten’s main channel — fell victim to the merger of Ten’s parent, CBS, with Viacom in the US.

Detailed negotiations in recent days have centred on ABC taking Fox Sports’s production of the game, with hopes it will deliver an audience well into six figures after several years of dramatic decline in TV ratings for A-League games.

W-League games broadcast on ABC1 on Sundays have regularly drawn audiences of around 65,000.

Both Ten and before that SBS only broadcast A-League games on their subsidiary channels, with little incentive to promote the coverage. 

[Sithslayer1991]

wander how many games they are looking at

[Edinburgh]

2 hours ago, Sithslayer1991 said:

wander how many games they are looking at

The article says the early (5:15) Saturday match each week. So 30 games? (Is there a 5:15 match each week?)

[mack]

Round 24 and 29 don't have 5:15 games. I think that's the only rounds without one.

[matty]

More good signs quickly after the clubs have taken over. 

Highlights the FFAs ineptitude and inertia.