Minutemen Blitz Melbourne City

[mack]

42 minutes ago, Harv said:

Then why are these exciting Aussie wingers not playing in Wanderers' colours.  Comes back to recruitment, and who has been  responsible for that????

Jumpei is Sotirio with a Japanese passport. I think the main point was that Jumpei wasn't scoring, didn't provide much in the way of assists, and his defensive work was mediocre. You could pick pretty much any early 20's fast winger off an NPL1 club and they'd do as well as Jumpei did.

[Harv]

17 hours ago, TheSweeper said:

Hersi does not belong in a conversation with castelan and jumpei. 

Hersi scored goals , provided assists  , won penalties and made great tackles .

Castelan and Jumpei couldn't shoot or pass or tackle although both could beat a man without any discernible end product . Castelan did shade it slightly due to a couple of outstanding games . 

Popa made a huge mistake by not getting rid if jumpei after last season . Everyone of the 20000 members new he wasn't going to get better . Must have been his love child from his playing days in Japan. 

 

7 hours ago, WestSyd said:

Castelen for me was just a much more valuable player who offered more than Jumpei:

Stronger, better dribbler, more pace, better crosser, much stronger shot, could shoot with both feet, needed man marking etc.

Hersi was more comparable to Jumpei as they both had the same small stature. However Hersi was more instinctive and much more of a tenacious fighter than Jumpei was. He also had a little bit more speed and was better able to win free kicks and penalties.

But even Hersi after a while started getting knocked off the ball by larger opponents  the way Jumpei was. Difference was Hersi offered a lot more in the two years he was here. Jumpei had a good first month (we all remember him dribbling past SFC players in that first round 4-0 loss last season), but after that his contributions were minimal, and eventually he became a weak link for us. 

So his reaction in the last game when he was subbed off was bewildering. As someone said, he should have maybe looked in the mirror at his own performance.

 

 

Interesting to note the varying opinions re Hersi and Castelen in the posts from TheSweeper and WestSyd - which is what helps to make the whole WSW Forums so interesting.  My argument has been there there was little difference in the contribution to the team made by Jumpei, Hersi and Castelen.

TheSweeper says that "Hersi scored goals, provided assists, won penalties .....".Unfortunately the stats don't support this.  In fact it was only the width of the post which stopped Jumpei from scoring from that tight angle last Monday - a goal which would have given him exactly the same number of A-League goals as Hersi in practically the same number of games.

WestSyd's opinion is that Castelen was "stronger, better dribbler, more pace, much stronger shot with both feet, ...." all of which may be true, but of little value unless it leads to goals being scored.

Mack's graph suggests Castelen's contribution to be well ahead, but in A-League games, Castelen 's hat-trick against Roar is the only reason he finished ahead of the other two in goals scored, again in practically the same number of games.

If someone has facts and figures, and not just a gut feeling, that Hersi provided assists and won penalties, or that Castelen's better crosses resulted in team goals, then I will be happy to concede that one or other contributed more to the team's success than the other two.

[StringerBellend]

7 minutes ago, Harv said:

 

Interesting to note the varying opinions re Hersi and Castelen in the posts from TheSweeper and WestSyd - which is what helps to make the whole WSW Forums so interesting.  My argument has been there there was little difference in the contribution to the team made by Jumpei, Hersi and Castelen.

TheSweeper says that "Hersi scored goals, provided assists, won penalties .....".Unfortunately the stats don't support this.  In fact it was only the width of the post which stopped Jumpei from scoring from that tight angle last Monday - a goal which would have given him exactly the same number of A-League goals as Hersi in practically the same number of games.

WestSyd's opinion is that Castelen was "stronger, better dribbler, more pace, much stronger shot with both feet, ...." all of which may be true, but of little value unless it leads to goals being scored.

Mack's graph suggests Castelen's contribution to be well ahead, but in A-League games, Castelen 's hat-trick against Roar is the only reason he finished ahead of the other two in goals scored, again in practically the same number of games.

If someone has facts and figures, and not just a gut feeling, that Hersi provided assists and won penalties, or that Castelen's better crosses resulted in team goals, then I will be happy to concede that one or other contributed more to the team's success than the other two.

Watch the game v victory we won at parra or the Brisbane roar semi

Jumpei didn’t come close 

Castelan was a former dutch international Jumpei a J League 2 squad player 

[Harv]

36 minutes ago, mack said:

Jumpei is Sotirio with a Japanese passport. I think the main point was that Jumpei wasn't scoring, didn't provide much in the way of assists, and his defensive work was mediocre. You could pick pretty much any early 20's fast winger off an NPL1 club and they'd do as well as Jumpei did.

Not disputing this.  Merely asking  who used a visa spot to recruit a player who was not as good as these local juniors?

[Edinburgh]

In addition to his attacking contribution, Hersi tracked back very well and often won the ball or broke up an attack.

Castelen always drew multiple defenders which would have provided more space elsewhere, unfortunately he didn't release the ball as often as he should have to allow us to take advantage more often.

For me that puts both of them ahead of Jumpei.

[Zelinsky]

45 minutes ago, JayZko said:

Don’t get your panties in a knot if you actually seen a quality striker in red and black by all means stop hailing false prophets 35 year old Santalab puts this 700k tool in his place

Watch a replay of the Adelaide GF. Santalab had no control over the ball, our midfielders had no one to play the ball too. We were dead up front once the Reds had the lead. 

The Spanish "tool" has a very different quality. It's clear to see but hey, you'd have to watch a game first to actually notice it. You might want to try it one day. It's very educational. Enjoy. 

[tardotz]

27 minutes ago, Harv said:

 

Interesting to note the varying opinions re Hersi and Castelen in the posts from TheSweeper and WestSyd - which is what helps to make the whole WSW Forums so interesting.  My argument has been there there was little difference in the contribution to the team made by Jumpei, Hersi and Castelen.

TheSweeper says that "Hersi scored goals, provided assists, won penalties .....".Unfortunately the stats don't support this.  In fact it was only the width of the post which stopped Jumpei from scoring from that tight angle last Monday - a goal which would have given him exactly the same number of A-League goals as Hersi in practically the same number of games.

WestSyd's opinion is that Castelen was "stronger, better dribbler, more pace, much stronger shot with both feet, ...." all of which may be true, but of little value unless it leads to goals being scored.

Mack's graph suggests Castelen's contribution to be well ahead, but in A-League games, Castelen 's hat-trick against Roar is the only reason he finished ahead of the other two in goals scored, again in practically the same number of games.

If someone has facts and figures, and not just a gut feeling, that Hersi provided assists and won penalties, or that Castelen's better crosses resulted in team goals, then I will be happy to concede that one or other contributed more to the team's success than the other two.

Keep in mind that these players are NOT strikers , you want midfielders and wingers to help in with goals but that is not their job. 

It is harsh to judge how good a player is just by how many goals they scored....but as far as spectator entertainment goes Castelan would be my pick

[Harv]

5 minutes ago, tardotz said:

Keep in mind that these players are NOT strikers , you want midfielders and wingers to help in with goals but that is not their job. 

It is harsh to judge how good a player is just by how many goals they scored....but as far as spectator entertainment goes Castelan would be my pick

No argument..  I agreed earlier that Castelen was by far the most exciting and entertaining of the three.  I have used the number of goals scored merely to point out that there was little difference between the three in their contribution to the team's success. Beyond goals scored,  whether one contributed more to the success of the team seems to be merely a matter of varying opinion and gut feeling relating to assists, crosses, penalties won, etc,  but with no stats to support these opinions. 

[Harv]

35 minutes ago, Edinburgh said:

In addition to his attacking contribution, Hersi tracked back very well and often won the ball or broke up an attack.

Castelen always drew multiple defenders which would have provided more space elsewhere, unfortunately he didn't release the ball as often as he should have to allow us to take advantage more often.

For me that puts both of them ahead of Jumpei.

I think you have summed up Castelen brilliantly.

[WestSyd]

3 minutes ago, Harv said:

No argument..  I agreed earlier that Castelen was by far the most exciting and entertaining of the three.  I have used the number of goals scored merely to point out that there was little difference between the three in their contribution to the team's success. Beyond goals scored,  whether one contributed more to the success of the team seems to be merely a matter of varying opinion and gut feeling relating to assists, crosses, penalties won, etc,  but with no stats to support these opinions. 

That's what I like about football though. Stats don't necessarily mean all that much. Some players are that good, that they provide opportunities for other players in the team merely by their presence on the field. As we saw Castelen when he was really in form was being marked by two men at times. Even then he was getting through them.

But it is all subjective really. In the end I thought Jumpei was physically too small for this league. Even Cejudo is finding the physically difficult. That is one of the things we have to look at when we recruit players.

 

[JayZko]

1 hour ago, FCB said:

Watch a replay of the Adelaide GF. Santalab had no control over the ball, our midfielders had no one to play the ball too. We were dead up front once the Reds had the lead. 

The Spanish "tool" has a very different quality. It's clear to see but hey, you'd have to watch a game first to actually notice it. You might want to try it one day. It's very educational. Enjoy. 

I’ve seen a lot of football my friend 

i don’t know why some games riera is a pack horse,

others he’s a complete and utter donkey.

who I’d sub in ten minutes... not my type of striker but whatever tickles the rbbs fancy 

He’s no berisha we need someone something that’s going to terrorise the a league not this almost one goal a game ejack **** lol we want to win it

Edited January 3, 2018 by JayZko

[mack]

While these stats aren't 100% inclusive of all competitions (I believe they cover A-League & ACL, not FFA Cup)

Hersi - 8 goals, 8 assists - 52 games included (0.30 goal/assist per game)

Castelen - 11 goals, 2 assists - 51 games included (0.25 goal/assist per game)

Jumpei - 6 goals, 4 assists - 44 games included (0.22 goal/assist per game)

Hersi was the better player and he helped win us the Premiership. Unfortunately his poor decisions making cost us when he got sent off in the Semi-Final and was banned for the Grand Final we lost to the Mariners.

Castelen got us to a Grand Final but didn't win it or the Premiership (although the Premiership when it came down to it, Mark Bridge missing the chance to win our game against Adelaide at Parramatta). If we had a better striker (ie, we had Oriol like he's playing now instead of Piovaccari), we probably would have won it.

Jumpei did nothing of value for us.

[Zelinsky]

21 minutes ago, JayZko said:

I’ve seen a lot of football my friend 

i don’t know why some games riera is a pack horse,

others he’s a complete and utter donkey.

who I’d sub in ten minutes... not my type of striker but whatever tickles the rbbs fancy 

He’s no berisha we need someone something that’s going to terrorise the a league not this almost one goal a game ejack **** lol we want to win it

That's why I am saying that you wouldn't recognise a quality striker to save your life.

Riera, still adjusting to the league, scored as many goals this season as Berisha. 

With proper support from his fellow team mates he'll equal the 15 goals Bobo scored in his first season with the Smurfs last year.

[mack]

28 minutes ago, JayZko said:

He’s no berisha we need someone something that’s going to terrorise the a league not this almost one goal a game ejack **** lol we want to win it

You realise Berisha & Riera both have 5 goals in the A-League season?

[Zelinsky]

1 minute ago, mack said:

You realise Berisha & Riera both have 5 goals in the A-League season?

The only thing that matters is that Oriol's name is not Honda...

[JayZko]

Rofl berisha has been average this season though,  I can’t believe you guys always think the sun shines out our marquee foreigners arse it’s pio all over again with a few more goals admit your wrong get a tifo weres a decent striker so we all can get along 

Edited January 3, 2018 by JayZko

[JayZko]

11 minutes ago, FCB said:

The only thing that matters is that Oriol's name is not Honda...

Honda would probably score 5 goals from set pieces though probably lead the league in assist 

[Harv]

12 minutes ago, mack said:

While these stats aren't 100% inclusive of all competitions (I believe they cover A-League & ACL, not FFA Cup)

Hersi - 8 goals, 8 assists - 52 games included (0.30 goal/assist per game)

Castelen - 11 goals, 2 assists - 51 games included (0.25 goal/assist per game)

Jumpei - 6 goals, 4 assists - 44 games included (0.22 goal/assist per game)

Hersi was the better player and he helped win us the Premiership. Unfortunately his poor decisions making cost us when he got sent off in the Semi-Final and was banned for the Grand Final we lost to the Mariners.

Castelen got us to a Grand Final but didn't win it or the Premiership (although the Premiership when it came down to it, Mark Bridge missing the chance to win our game against Adelaide at Parramatta). If we had a better striker (ie, we had Oriol like he's playing now instead of Piovaccari), we probably would have won it.

Jumpei did nothing of value for us.

Thanks Mack.  Castelen's goals include one in the ACL and one in the FIFA Club World Cup, leaving 9 A-League goals, including a hat-trick against Roar..  I don't think Jumpei's record includes this year's goal.  Thus, purely on A-League goals there was little between them, though the number of assists gives another insight into their contributions to the team's success.

[JayZko]

For the money being paid to riera hes meh......and cejudo is ........ wtf 

i like Raul llorente but a fb is a waste of a foreign spot

Edited January 3, 2018 by JayZko

[Zelinsky]

9 minutes ago, JayZko said:

Rofl berisha has been average this season though,  I can’t believe you guys always think the sun shines out our marquee foreigners arse it’s pio all over again with a few more goals admit your wrong get a tifo weres a decent striker so we all can get along 

Hmmmm...

You might want to try that shoe on yourself. With every goal he scores he makes you look more like the donkey you accuse him to be.

 

[Paul01]

Just now, JayZko said:

For the money being paid to riera hes meh......

Janko was Sh1t for the smurfs in the first half of season he was here. In the second half of that season he got or got close to the golden boot.

He has had to contend with 2 coach changes, crap or no crosses. 

In any case our best Goals For in a season is about 20 (2015/16). We have a postponed game against the Phoenix still to play and against whom Santalab normally gets a least one goal and our Goals for sits on 13.

Riera will come good when our midfield transition becomes cohesive and we get a winger who can cross.

[Harv]

2 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

Watch the game v victory we won at parra or the Brisbane roar semi

Jumpei didn’t come close 

Castelan was a former dutch international Jumpei a J League 2 squad player 

I'll have to bow to your memory regarding the Victory game .  If the game you refer to Vs Roar is the one in which Castelen scored his hat-trick, then I have already acknowledged this effort.

Not sure what you mean by "Jumpei didn't come close", but I am assuming you are referring to your earlier post in which you claim that the Jumpei shot on goal hit the side netting rather than the post.  In making this claim you are not only questioning my ability to distinguish between the sound of a ball hitting the post and the almost lack of sound of a ball hitting the side netting, but you are also questioning the validity of match reports on both The World Game and the Australian Four Four Two websites, both of which refer to Jumpei hitting the post.

Castelen wouldn't be the first former international to play in the A-League and not quite reach the heights we would have had hoped, while the fact that Jumpei was a J League 2 squad player perhaps reflects more on those responsible for his recruitment than on Jumpei himself.

[JayZko]

Hmm

Rofl one goal at a time **** may as well retire here

Don’t expect to win anything it’s everyone else’s fault but our marquees cause there gun as lol 5 goals whoop’die ******* do what a golden boot guy when he signed he was supposed to be better then him berisha is having a slow season and still na bro

Edited January 3, 2018 by JayZko

[JayZko]

were the 2nd biggest club in the a league

with the potential of being

Anything yet we’re miss managed to the **** house it’s not good enough

[tardotz]

1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

Janko was Sh1t for the smurfs in the first half of season he was here. In the second half of that season he got or got close to the golden boot.

True story ....I was at a conference a few weeks ago and was talking to a couple of Austrians that are over in OZ for a few months for work. They are big fooball fans and I asked if they have been to the A-league, they said no because the level is not good. When I asked how they could say that if they haven't watched their relpy was amazing. They said that they heard Janko was one of the best players here ....and if that the case the league must be bad because he was rubbish is Austria.

[TheSweeper]

5 hours ago, Harv said:

No argument..  I agreed earlier that Castelen was by far the most exciting and entertaining of the three.  I have used the number of goals scored merely to point out that there was little difference between the three in their contribution to the team's success. Beyond goals scored,  whether one contributed more to the success of the team seems to be merely a matter of varying opinion and gut feeling relating to assists, crosses, penalties won, etc,  but with no stats to support these opinions. 

Fair enough it's all a matter of opinion  but in the end if the stats show Hersi = Jumpei then they are useless . Maybe  that's how we ended up with Jumpei  , relied on stats not scouts . 

The thing with hersi was he made a difference  in big games .Its been a while but I distinctly remember his goal at the sfs when we won our first derby  , he won the penalty on aus day at parra to win with 10 men , scored the winner at heart in last game of the season 2 to secure top 2 spot , semi final goal at parra v ccm . 

Can't be bothered looking  it up but the only stats that count  will probably look something like this . 

Hersi played  50 games won 30 draw 10 lost 10 

Jumpei played 40 games won 10 draw 15 lost 15 

 

 

 

 

[Erebus]

When running into a cul-de-sac of opposition defenders on the wing, Hersi would turn his back and win a foul.

Jumpei instead keeps running forward and tries to get past all of them with his right foot and is dispossessed. 

[StringerBellend]

@Harv by not being close I meant in performance and effectiveness 

[Harv]

3 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

@Harv by not being close I meant in performance and effectiveness 

Point taken.

[Harv]

Dare I suggest that the Hersi/Castelen/Jumpei discussion seems to tip the balance in favour of Hersi as the most productive of the three for our team, with Castelen not short of his supporters, and Jumpei a distant third.  This also suggests to a worrying trend in our recruitment of right-side attackers as we seem to be moving backwards.  Let us hope that Gombau is able to reverse this unfavourable trend.

I would still maintain, however, that Jumpei was unfairly singled out as the  as the whipping boy for our defensive frailties against MC.  The Australian Four Four Two awards player rankings, and for the MC game awarded the following (and I quote these figures without comment or voicing opinion):

Riera    8

Janjetovic     7.5

Roly     7

Jumpei      7

No other WSW player, and no MC player was awarded above 6.5.