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wendybr

International Current Affairs (Not A Politics Thread) LOL

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Very interesting scarcev!

It would be my observation that university does breed idealistic, purist views and it is only life experience that brings balance. 

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1 hour ago, scarcev said:

Thanks Wendy great discussion points and I believe it is just as bad in Australia. My kids at 22 and 24 are taught that it is great to call out more, critical thinking they call it, ironically critical thinking with no life experience means research that is usually swayed one way or another.  We used to go up The Entrance or Nelson Bay, my kids go to Canada and Europe for holidays, they see more, feel more comfortable and they are obliged to call out more, it is there validation of being an adult, it is their rite of passage.  Adults perpetuate this 'I want my kids to be able to express themselves' mentality as well even if they don't need a full understanding of the issues, they have a 'leaning' and that leaning dictates everything they have to believe, no exceptions.  I got called a 'sell out' by my daughters for voting a certain way, when I have and always will vote on local issues/candidates and not on one Party.  I tried to impress on them that there is good and bad in every Policy and that one positive effect for some will negatively impact another, they would not have a bar of it.  This rise in 'callout culture' means that as the Professor states, you follow a team and if you follow the Wanderers, you cannot like anything that Sydney FC do or achieve, it is as simple as that.  You either support the Left and if you don't, you are from the far right, not just the right but the far right and same for the Left.  It is worrying and it is the reason behind the rise of the Trumps, the One Nations, the Clive Palmers who wish to obliterate the 'snowflakes' and the Left who wishes to obliterate the Nazi right, we have no middle ground anymore, that 'silent majority' that all political persuasions talk about doesn't exist anymore, it is saying that WE are the middle when in reality that loud mouthed WE is often the middle to left or middle to right.  You can see it in the way election campaigns are run, politicians used to try to woo you with Policies now they don't, they push the fear and terror of the alternative Party instead. Morrison has spoken more of shortcomings of Shorten than he has of his own Policies or benefit, same could be said of PHON, Clive Palmer and just about everyone else, Shorten's advantage believe it or not has been not having anything interesting to say and the other parties chopping each other up to see who can be more out there. 

Both these daughters of mine are teachers (both first year) and it is only now through interaction with others that I am starting to see them get their own opinions instead of the indoctrinated ones they got through school and Uni which is interesting.  While they talk to parents of kids called Nevaeh (Heaven backwards) and even a KVIIILYN (thats Katelyn for anyone that knows Roman numerals - I **** you not) who want their kids to express themselves which means calling out teachers for not teaching to lowest denominator.  This year my Kindy teacher daughter was called out by a 5yo's parent who was upset and went to the Principle because she only got one card to draw for Mother's Day when this little girl has two mums (Dad used to be Darryl but is now Donna), keep in mind my daughter stressed over and over to the children that there is different types of families and Mother's Day may also include your guardian, Nan or Aunty but she was called out for not taking the same sex or trans route ironically she said if she had done so she may have had more parents complain anyway.  So it is changing exactly as the Professor says by life experience which causes you to question the herd mentality.  Sorry for the long post, just fascinated by the topic.

No need for an apology, Scarcev - it's an insightful and interesting response!

Thank you!

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4 hours ago, Edinburgh said:

 

A very interesting discussion, as Wendy said, and enlightening as well. It certainly helped me understand why the balanced opinions that I seek are rarely expressed these days. It's a pity that there is little or no expectation that such understanding will be reciprocated. 

I haven't seen much of JP but the little I have seen he was always up against one or more people who clearly had an agenda against him** and rarely, no never, allowed him to finish what he was trying to say and explain. I wonder if he would sound more reasonable to his doubters if he was given the non judgemental freedom that this interviewer allowed.

** That is, introduced/forced their own political, philosophical and religious stances into the debate.

Yes to all that - it's not a good place we're in.

Re JP - there were worse examples of how he was treated on US campuses, than the one below...and some were truly frightening, with people pounding on windows as he attempted to speak etc. But when he first came to prominence, this is what happened on one campus where he had a speaking engagement.

A quick skim through will give you the idea.

So,  attempts made repeatedly to silence him, and "de-platform" him NO DOUBT contribute to his low expectations of being heard out...and would be why he can really snap at interviewers etc

 

I can understand how he sees these overreactive young people as a threat to dialogue and free speech.

And his audience don't really look to me like a mob of Neo -Nazis.

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Oh....I found footage of one of the scarier disruptions to a speaking engagement - which I'll post below.

What happened at the start of the event is shown at the end...from about 1.42.00 onwards...

And here are his observations...

 

"The 900 or so people who attended (who comported themselves admirably and thoughtfully throughout) were subject to a continual 90-minute barrage of noise generated by the protestors, who leaped up on the stained glass windows lining the hall and banged continually on them, breaking one. Inside, we could see shadowy figures dimly outlined through the colored glass. The outside doors were barricaded. One protestor was caught on film saying "Lock them in and burn it down." The din was substantial and ominous, although it is much attenuated in this video, due to the nature of the microphones used, which were designed to pick up speech close at hand.

The protestor who broke the window was arrested, but not before she bit a policeman, attempted to kick the back window out of a police cruiser, and was found to be in possession of a garrotte, a particularly brutal weapon with no defensive utility whatsoever (http://bit.ly/2HoTDAu). The man who cursed so profoundly and eloquently near the beginning of the lecture accosted me and my crew after the talk, and yelled and cursed and threatened at close quarters during our 200-yard walk from the venue to the parade.

No one who was at this event will forget it.

Not good. Not good at all. "

 

He headed straight out to Australia after this shameful episode - and must have been relieved that here, he was treated respectfully.

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Posted (edited)

We live in polarising times.

We have lived in them before.

In the US, every single extremist murder in the last year - and there are plenty - was perpetrated by people from one side of that polarisation. Protesting loudly to disrupt an event and a bit of criminal damage is one thing... but it's hardly the breakdown of civilization. The USA owes its existence to people doing that.

Peterson also possibly gets the reaction he gets because he rose to prominence when he was out on his own campus with a megaphone shouting down people with his standard neo-con misrepresentations about free speech and pronouns.

Denial of free speech is not being shouted down in a public space. in real life, or on twitter. it's just not.

 

Yeah, things aren't good.

But sometimes I look at the "middle way" - i.e., treating things evenly - and I can't help but think about how the media give "balance" by providing a platform for outrageous views. If 95% of people are in agreement on something, you don't provide balance by giving the 5% 50% of the airtime. To paraphrase Bloch - if your neighbour says 2x2 is 4 and your other neighbour says 2x2=5, don't conclude that the answer is 4 and a half.

The right to protest is important. And you know what, sometimes, holding a sign isn't enough to do anything. I think being loud and disrupting stuff can backfire. Especially with someone like Peterson who quite literally thrives off it.

 

 

Edited by marron

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3 minutes ago, marron said:

We live in polarising times.

We have lived in them before.

In the US, every single extremist murder in the last year - and there are plenty - was perpetrated by people from one side of that polarisation. Protesting loudly to disrupt an event and a bit of criminal damage is one thing... but it's hardly the breakdown of civilization. The USA owes its existence to people doing that.

Peterson also possibly gets the reaction he gets because he rose to prominence when he was out on his own campus with a megaphone shouting down people with his standard neo-con misrepresentations about free speech and pronouns.

 

Yeah, things aren't good.

But sometimes I look at the "middle way" - i.e., treating things evenly - and I can't help but think about how the media give "balance" by providing a platform for outrageous views. If 95% of people are in agreement on something, you don't provide balance by giving the 5% 50% of the airtime. To paraphrase Bloch - if your neighbour says 2x2 is 4 and your other neighbour says 2x2=5, don't conclude that the answer is 4 and a half.

The right to protest is important. And you know what, sometimes, holding a sign isn't enough to do anything. I think being loud and disrupting stuff can backfire. Especially with someone like Peterson who quite literally thrives off it.

 

 

Absolutely, the right to protest for what you believe in is something to be protected.

 

Whats underlying this though that maybe there is an oversensitivity, a willingness to see outrage in innocent things sometimes. Not all the time...but sometimes.

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And 100%of the time, when that happens, it is overblown as evidence that you aren't allowed to blah blah blah anymore.

 

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Posted (edited)

Haha Legia. 100%. I stand by it based on nothing and no overblowing.

heh.

i see more use of "PC gone mad" than anything else - and it's always with the suggestion that "you can't.....", which is just not true

I'm not on twitter though so there's that.

 

 

Just on the right to protest.

If you belong to an institution - it is your community.

If you have an authority that you believe doesn't represent the whole community making a decision that you disagree with - and you have enough support within the community to stop that decision without opposition from the undecided - then, aren't you going to try and do what you can in your power to stop the decision?

I don't see what's wrong with that process.

 

 

 

Edited by marron

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5 minutes ago, marron said:

And 100%of the time, when that happens, it is overblown as evidence that you aren't allowed to blah blah blah anymore.

 

Yeah I reckon sometimes too much is made of it. Especially the uni student stuff. 

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*for the record I am not that teacher that's not got any shifts this week because he said that students should go on strike

 

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9 minutes ago, marron said:

And 100%of the time, when that happens, it is overblown as evidence that you aren't allowed to blah blah blah anymore.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Legionista said:

We’ll you aren’t.

 

4 minutes ago, marron said:

Haha Legia. 100%. I stand by it based on nothing and no overblowing.

heh.

i see more use of "PC gone mad" than anything else - and it's always with the suggestion that "you can't....."

I'm not on twitter though so there's that.

 

 

Just on the right to protest.

If you belong to an institution - it is your community.

If you have an authority that you believe doesn't represent the whole community making a decision that you disagree with - and you have enough support within the community to stop that decision without opposition from the undecided - then, aren't you going to try and do what you can in your power to stop the decision?

I don't see what's wrong with that process.

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Yeah I reckon sometimes too much is made of it. Especially the uni student stuff. 

I'm afraid I don't know what any of you are saying.  You're comments are ambiguous to me.

- overblown as evidence of what?

- well you aren't what?

- stand by what?

- too much is made of what?

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5 minutes ago, marron said:

*for the record I am not that teacher that's not got any shifts this week because he said that students should go on strike

 

So do you think the kids should strike? 

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Posted (edited)

Cynth said that there is a tendency in people today to see outrage in things and react to them.

E.g., - the reaction to Jordan Peterson. "He says this" "he says that" "he's a fascist" "he's a nazi", whatever. Or perhaps, seeing offence in certain words or actions when none is meant.

She implies that these reactions are overblown, and probably counter productive.

I said that 100% of the time, when this happens, the reaction by other people is far more overblown - that is, other people see someone getting "offended" and say "See? the world is going crazy. You are not allowed to say things anymore or someone will get offended".

Legionista suggested my claim was overblown. He is probably right. I said "i stand by it" but have to admit my tongue is a little in my cheek there.

I the said, still, I see more overblown reaction to political correctness than overblown political correctness. Although I admit that I'm not on twitter where a lot of that stuff happens. Still... how important is twitter?

Edited by marron

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3 minutes ago, Cynth said:

So do you think the kids should strike? 

Nobody SHOULD do anything. ;) I would never presume to tell kids what they SHOULD do.

But I think that every kid has a stake in society, and if they want a say in how that society is going to run, then they have lots of ways of doing that, and I'd rather kids are getting involved in those one way or another, than that kids are doing nothing and not being engaged with things that will affect their lives.

i can't express my political views onto kids, and I get why, and agree, so i'm happy enough that i can't tell kids they should or  shouldn't strike.

If i was a kid, I would. Hell, I DID, kinda. haha. I wagged and went to protests back in the day.

You are also talking to someone who has witnessed real student strikes and/or outcomes from those strikes, and someone who has talked to students about that when it's come up.

interestingly at my place there is very little talk about this upcoming one. like, zero.

 

 

 

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^^^^cant like this post enough! I agree wholeheartedly! 

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20 minutes ago, marron said:

Cynth said that there is a tendency in people today to see outrage in things and react to them.

E.g., - the reaction to Jordan Peterson. "He says this" "he says that" "he's a fascist" "he's a nazi", whatever. Or perhaps, seeing offence in certain words or actions when none is meant.

She implies that these reactions are overblown, and probably counter productive.

I said that 100% of the time, when this happens, the reaction by other people is far more overblown - that is, other people see someone getting "offended" and say "See? the world is going crazy. You are not allowed to say things anymore or someone will get offended".

Legionista suggested my claim was overblown. He is probably right. I said "i stand by it" but have to admit my tongue is a little in my cheek there.

I the said, still, I see more overblown reaction to political correctness than overblown political correctness. Although I admit that I'm not on twitter where a lot of that stuff happens. Still... how important is twitter?

Ahhh now I get it!  :lol:

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11 minutes ago, marron said:

Nobody SHOULD do anything. ;) I would never presume to tell kids what they SHOULD do.

But I think that every kid has a stake in society, and if they want a say in how that society is going to run, then they have lots of ways of doing that, and I'd rather kids are getting involved in those one way or another, than that kids are doing nothing and not being engaged with things that will affect their lives.

i can't express my political views onto kids, and I get why, and agree, so i'm happy enough that i can't tell kids they should or  shouldn't strike.

If i was a kid, I would. Hell, I DID, kinda. haha. I wagged and went to protests back in the day.

You are also talking to someone who has witnessed real student strikes and/or outcomes from those strikes, and someone who has talked to students about that when it's come up.

interestingly at my place there is very little talk about this upcoming one. like, zero.

 

 

 

I have almost zero contact with "local" kids at my school any more - surrounded and involved as I am almost exclusively with our international students these days.

But I did hear from one of our (very a-typical) head teachers, who is also the dad of one of our students, that some of our kids, including his daughter, are joining the protest,

He thinks it's great, and so do I!

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btw, to go back where all this started, on the topic of having your say, talking over people, not listening etc

 

I blame the internet.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, marron said:

Cynth said that there is a tendency in people today to see outrage in things and react to them.

E.g., - the reaction to Jordan Peterson. "He says this" "he says that" "he's a fascist" "he's a nazi", whatever. Or perhaps, seeing offence in certain words or actions when none is meant.

She implies that these reactions are overblown, and probably counter productive.

I said that 100% of the time, when this happens, the reaction by other people is far more overblown - that is, other people see someone getting "offended" and say "See? the world is going crazy. You are not allowed to say things anymore or someone will get offended".

Legionista suggested my claim was overblown. He is probably right. I said "i stand by it" but have to admit my tongue is a little in my cheek there.

I the said, still, I see more overblown reaction to political correctness than overblown political correctness. Although I admit that I'm not on twitter where a lot of that stuff happens. Still... how important is twitter?

Thanks marron.

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:golecapproves:

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1 hour ago, marron said:

The right to protest is important. And you know what, sometimes, holding a sign isn't enough to do anything. I think being loud and disrupting stuff can backfire. Especially with someone like Peterson who quite literally thrives off it.

 

He thrives off it because it proves his point about these protestors.

 

PS I'm pretty sure I've have been one of them if I were at uni today - well...at least initially, I'm embarrassed to admit. :lol:

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Yep.

Except, it doesn't prove any points about free speech, or, that what he says is valid, or welcome.

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Nothing else on the boil here, so......may as well....

EmMac (who has sided with the haters) and Cynth might give this a bit of a viewing?

Most others here have made up their minds, which is a shame.

PS His advocacy of monogamous marriage, I guess, would at least in part be based on the fact that he fell in love with his wife when they were both  7 years old...although they didn't marry until their late 20s. His secrets of a long and happy marriage, I guess, aren't that profound - but they're here.

This is a very civilised conversation with 2 pleasant women, rather than the frequent battles with stupid, agenda driven female interviewers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKUffHXOb8U&t=2214s

 

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A petition was started yesterday on the UK parliament website to debate revoking Article 50 and staying in the EU. It just passed 2 million signatures and crashed the website multiple times.

My favorite part is the following tweets from the CTO of the company that built the website.

10 hours later...

 

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On 22/03/2019 at 9:56 AM, Davo said:

A petition was started yesterday on the UK parliament website to debate revoking Article 50 and staying in the EU. It just passed 2 million signatures and crashed the website multiple times.

My favorite part is the following tweets from the CTO of the company that built the website.

10 hours later...

 

It’s all fixed now the whole Brexit thing is sorted 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/22/uri-geller-promises-to-stop-brexit-using-telepathy

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