International Current Affairs (#BidenIn)

[wendybr]

That's fair enough Btron.

It opened up a whole new world to me - which has been useful in understanding the changes that have happened since I started engaging - and that are scarily continuing to happen.

I found it fascinating.

I'd have never heard of George Soros (Lord of Darkness) Alex Jones, Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson  etc etc etc - and I have actually enjoyed learning about the wonderful world of podcasts...and the ideas exchanged through them.

I just lived in an ABC bubble - so it broadened my ideas enormously.

 

 But each to his/her own.

[btron3000]

3 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Alex Jones

LOL

This guy is hilarious. But anyone that takes him seriously is in desperate need of some meds.

6 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Jordan Peterson 

Now here is an interesting character. I believe a LOT of what he says, and he says it brilliantly. He represents much of what I've been hinting at above. Many on the right want to claim him as their own and hold him up as some kind of right wing poster boy, rather than recognising that he's criticising the ideas of identity politics and extreme versions of the left, NOT the left in general.

(Note: When i say "a lot of what he says", I'm not referring to his books which I haven't read, but his actions and his debates/discussions on youtube etc.  For example, his refusal to obey the Canadian government when they forced people to call trans people by certain titles, not because he was against the idea of calling people certain titles, but the enforcement of language by the government.  And his statements that men and women, when given freedom of choice, choose different things, so aiming to have equality of outcomes is wrong, we should be aiming for equality of opportunity. I'm not a big fan of his religious beliefs, but whatevs.)

 

11 minutes ago, wendybr said:

I just lived in an ABC bubble - so it broadened my ideas enormously.

ahhh so you're the reason they had certain opinions of lefties  

[wendybr]

10 hours ago, btron3000 said:

And Legia, why not respond to the second part of my post? What do you think about the supposed rise of lefties who don't like the radical left? (I write "supposed" because these people have always been on the left, contrary to the thoughts of the right. They're now just being heard more because they too are sick of many of the current views that are being classified as left and attributed to them as well.)

This is interesting isn't it.

I would class myself amongst these people.

Where do these people go?

 Some like Mark Latham head Right.

Quite a few of the main protagonists on the old Politics Thread said they had HAD been on the left - but had taken a hard turn to the Right when PC etcetera became unbearable.

This shift seems to be happening..

 

I just couldn't.

The mind set...you said world view...is just too different.

But it's hard relating to much of what is going on the far left side, at the moment.

And I celebrate those on the Left who are trying to wake up others to what's happening...like Jonathan Pie eg in this clip - recently posted...but worth watching.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+tube+Jonathan+Pie+PC&&view=detail&mid=64E9C6A78F4E5EE2F5B464E9C6A78F4E5EE2F5B4&&FORM=VRDGAR

or this

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+tube+Jonathan+oppressionn+obsession&&view=detail&mid=48387381DC445F5BA62648387381DC445F5BA626&&FORM=VRDGAR

[mack]

Lol, "I used to be a left wing until [right wing propaganda point] happened then I saw the light and now I'm a conservative, you should all join me" is right up there with fake "as a black gay illegal immigrant union member I support Trump #MAGA" false flag social media accounts.

As for Mark Latham, the traitorous cur, he realised no-one in the left would ever care about him again, when Gough told him to quit politics entirely after he resigned. He had a cry & a sook, got pissy because Gough told him to make way for a new generation so he switched sides & sold out to Rupert.

[wendybr]

4 minutes ago, btron3000 said:

LOL

This guy is hilarious. But anyone that takes him seriously is in desperate need of some meds.

Indeed! 

 But his influence is frightening.

 

Quote

Now here is an interesting character. I believe a LOT of what he says, and he says it brilliantly. He represents much of what I've been hinting at above. Many on the right want to claim him as their own and hold him up as some kind of right wing poster boy, rather than recognising that he's criticising the ideas of identity politics and extreme versions of the left, NOT the left in general.

(Note: When i say "a lot of what he says", I'm not referring to his books which I haven't read, but his actions and his debates/discussions on youtube etc.  For example, his refusal to obey the Canadian government when they forced people to call trans people by certain titles, not because he was against the idea of calling people certain titles, but the enforcement of language by the government.  And his statements that men and women, when given freedom of choice, choose different things, so aiming to have equality of outcomes is wrong, we should be aiming for equality of opportunity. I'm not a big fan of his religious beliefs, but whatevs.)

Absolutely.

He is absolutely fascinating!

In fact a little party of Lefties, and a few on the Right from the old Politics Thread went to his lecture in Chatswood early in the year.

 No politics really - just his "rules " for life.

Quote

ahhh so you're the reason they had certain opinions of lefties  

Hahahaha...I certainly fitted the stereotype.

But ...they always hated on the ABC...and they were right to see my views as blinkered. To an extent, they were.

But their views of the ABC were unreasonable, and I can't accept them.

 

Anyway …. good to have somewhere to discuss....ideas!

[wendybr]

8 minutes ago, mack said:

Lol, "I used to be a left wing until [right wing propaganda point] happened then I saw the light and now I'm a conservative, you should all join me" is right up there with fake "as a black gay illegal immigrant union member I support Trump #MAGA" false flag social media accounts.

I understand your cynicism...but it's a thing.

Somewhat.

Well - people (I assume including Btron) being pissed off with the excesses of the Left is certainly a thing. 

I don't know that many jump ship like Latham has done- but some are doing it.

They are. I know them.

Young people.

"Getting red pilled" as I'm sure you are aware.

[luisenrique]

Here's a story from Pakistan that I will use to illustrate my thoughts on this (apologies to btron who has already heard me rant about this on Sat night!):

Quote

Islamabad PAKISTAN Supreme Court is to hear the final appeal of a Christian woman on death row since 2010 accused of insulting Islam's prophet, a crime that carries an automatic death penalty.

 Lawyer Saiful Malook is optimistic Aasia Bibi will win her appeal. But if not, he will seek a review, which could take years.

 "I am a 100 per cent sure she will be acquitted," Mr Malook said on the eve of the hearing. "She has a very good case." In 2009, Ms Bibi went to get water for her and fellow farmworkers. After she took a sip, some Muslim women became angry a Christian had drunk from the same container. They demanded she convert, she refused.

    Five days later, a mob later accused her of blasphemy. She was convicted and sentenced to death.

As Bill Maher says in his latest stand-up...he saw someone at a rally with a 'Gays against Islamaphobia' t-shirt...Maher then says 'Go to Pakistan and wear that shirt...no-one will read past the first word.'

As we're all aware, a lot of the 'NO' vote for SSM came from Western Sydney, mostly from religious communities. Among them, the leader of the Federation of Islamic Councils literally said 'We know they've supported us in the past as fellow minorities, but we still advise people to vote no.' He said it himself!

What's my point?

People get frustrated by CERTAIN SECTIONS of the Left's binary thinking of stuff like this. Criticising Islam for its attitudes towards women or homosexuals or blasphemy for example (and again, if anyone doubts this is a problem, go to Pakistan, or Malaysia, etc), is actually a very leftist position to take...however it seems in recent times there's been a shift (maybe cos of the Internet? I don't know) among some people where everything is either GOOD or BAD. It's weird. 

The fact that we're even having this conversation is weird. It should just be accepted that no matter what side of politics you're on, you're unlikely to agree with EVERYTHING anyone from your side ever says. If you agree with everything, it's a cult. So that being the case, I'm not sure why of late people on the left, like myself, have to tread on eggshells when discussing 'sensitive' topics. Some of the stuff that gets talked about (cultural appropriation...I'll resist having a rant about that)...is just embarrassing. 

 

But at the end of the day, here's the big difference between the two sides for me (this will wind up our right wing friends)...there is plenty of evidence on this thread, for example, of lefties like us questioning certain aspects of our side of politics.

How often are the right wingers doing that? All you get from them is pithy one liners or couplets. Imagine being on a side that has produced Trump, Bolsonaro, Morrison et al in recent times and NEVER criticising a single thing about them. 

Of course I'm not saying that no right wingers do that...witness the article posted earlier about the guy leaving the GOP. But in general I think (from my biased perspective) that the left is more self-critical...it's just that it can be its own worst enemy by shouting down valid opinions from within. The right however, in general, is interested more in making sure the other side loses, by whatever means necessary. It's just a game to be won or lost to them. 

 

Phew. rant over.

[Cynth]

http://www2.philly.com/philly/columnists/will_bunch/trump-won-2016-election-russian-hacking-kathleen-hall-jamieson-book-20181009.html

Seems useless to find evidence that the Russians hacked the election...all the evidence in the world won’t convince people who benefit from it. 

Beats me why the public in the US haven’t been educated about the methods being used and why online voter systems, voter rolls, voter profiles etc haven’t been protected. 

[wendybr]

9 hours ago, mack said:

As for Mark Latham, the traitorous cur, he realised no-one in the left would ever care about him again, when Gough told him to quit politics entirely after he resigned. He had a cry & a sook, got pissy because Gough told him to make way for a new generation so he switched sides & sold out to Rupert.

Yes - he's unbelievable.

[GunnerWanderer]

Alex Jones and his infowars channel has massive following 

he’s into exposing the whole new world Order, builderberg group and any so called govt conspiracy 

I’ve watched some of his stuff over the years it’s interesting to say the least 

 

[mack]

9 hours ago, luisenrique said:

As Bill Maher says in his latest stand-up...he saw someone at a rally with a 'Gays against Islamaphobia' t-shirt...Maher then says 'Go to Pakistan and wear that shirt...no-one will read past the first word.'

That's pretty silly. Maher can't go to Saudi Arabia or Malaysia or the Netherlands or Thailand and insult the King either. You can be against religious bigotry while still being against religion itself, or in favour of certain rights that don't exist in other, religious countries apart from the one you live in.

17 minutes ago, GunnerWanderer said:

Alex Jones and his infowars channel has massive following 

he’s into exposing the whole new world Order, builderberg group and any so called govt conspiracy 

I’ve watched some of his stuff over the years it’s interesting to say the least 

it's funny how the NWO/Lizardpeople/Obama/Clinton/Anti-Christ haven't just murdered everyone involved. That's the thing thing I'd do if someone was exposing my NWO secret slave dungeons. Especially since I'm already apparently murdering dozens, or hundreds or even thousands of people every year in preparation for my NWO Jewish-Communist No Guns United Nation.

 

[luisenrique]

12 hours ago, mack said:

That's pretty silly. Maher can't go to Saudi Arabia or Malaysia or the Netherlands or Thailand and insult the King either. You can be against religious bigotry while still being against religion itself, or in favour of certain rights that don't exist in other, religious countries apart from the one you live in.

 

I agree, but there is a tendency to brand any criticism of Islam as 'Islamaphobia'.

Of course there are many out there who are genuinely bigoted who pretend to care about women's rights etc in a way to justify their bigotry, but by the same token, I've seen the reactions of people change when I make the exact same point as a white friend of mine, because apparently because I'm brown I must know what I'm talking about re: brown people, whereas the other guy is just a racist.

[btron3000]

On 10/10/2018 at 2:26 AM, luisenrique said:

in general I think (from my biased perspective) that the left is more self-critical...

Perhaps. But I would also argue that much of your experience, and mine too for the most part, has been centrist lefties, and your friends are for the most part around 30 and above, right?  There seems to be - though like many things it probably gets overblown - a growing amount of hard core lefties who can't process the common sense middle ground. Particularly young people as their only experience of the world is one where people take as read the arguments for equality (rightly so in most cases but like all things if it is assumed to be correct then you are bound to get some drift and change before people realise it's gone too far or is in fact incorrect in some cases).

(Also, when I say middle ground here I don't mean politically in a way that refers to socialism or communist beliefs, as you can actually believe in a fiscal or social order that is very left but not agree with the identity politics or the more hardcore equality arguments, political correctness gone mad, cultural appropriation etc.)

Some examples from my experience:

One single girl at my current workplace refused - REFUSED - to accept that one of the mums at our work would let her kids dress up like a character in a disney movie that wasn't white.  The mum was like "my kid is upset and wants to dress up, it's not causing any harm, I'm not going to say no" and this girl had the nerve to start telling the mum how she should bring up her kid, as if she knew how to raise a kid better. I sat there gobsmacked. In the same broad discussion she also claimed it was inappropriate for white people to go to a fancy dress party as a rapper.

I had another situation at a place where I had a 4 month contract. I was listening to them organise lunchtime sporting teams. I couldn't join as I wasn't going to be there long enough but I said that if they were ever short to let me know and I'd fill in. I asked what the basketball rules were (there are always rules in mixed basketball where guys are restricted so they don't just take over the game). Someone answered that guys weren't allowed to block girls' shots. One girl was OUTRAGED. "Girls are as good as guys at basketball" she stormed. Ah... No. I could MAYBE see an argument if it was "everyone should be equal, that's the only way girls will get better" (but probably not), but she was convinced that girls could compete with guys on a level playing field. It was bizarre. This kind of weird thinking is affecting people's ability to see equality arguments in any common sense way.

Of course, all this doesn't mean that the left is less self-critical than you give it credit, just that I've seen people on the left totally convinced of their opinions and refusing to listen to any other arguments.

[btron3000]

Also, Australia is pretty stable, which doesn't lend itself to the political extremes of other countries. There is no doubt some lefties in other countries who are much more extreme than what we have here. As there probably needs to be, to balance out the extreme right.

[Cynth]

I agree with your observation about age. I find that older lefties tend to have a much more common sense approach, much more centrist. 

Some of my (politically incorrect) observations is that there has been a rise in humanities/social justice type courses in university which are not evidence based but are based instead on the oppressed and the oppressor, identity politics. These teachings appear to have a strong influence on the younger generation. 

To me, science is dying as is pragmatism.

Equality doesn’t mean everyone is the same. 

[Edinburgh]

Can someone post a graph or something plotting left and right and everything in between and the extremes outside? With explanations. Maybe I'll then be able to understand a little of what you lot are talking about. 

I suspect there will be pages of lefts and the right will be covered by just 3 entries: centre right, right and extreme right - with contemptible explanations. 

Or will I be surprised?

[Cynth]

Lol, I’ll pass thanks. 

[thefairy]

7 hours ago, btron3000 said:

Also, Australia is pretty stable, which doesn't lend itself to the political extremes of other countries. There is no doubt some lefties in other countries who are much more extreme than what we have here. As there probably needs to be, to balance out the extreme right.

heard of clementine? 

[Carns]

2 hours ago, thefairy said:

heard of clementine? 

She drives me ******* nuts.

[luisenrique]

16 hours ago, btron3000 said:

Perhaps. But I would also argue that much of your experience, and mine too for the most part, has been centrist lefties, and your friends are for the most part around 30 and above, right?  There seems to be - though like many things it probably gets overblown - a growing amount of hard core lefties who can't process the common sense middle ground. Particularly young people as their only experience of the world is one where people take as read the arguments for equality (rightly so in most cases but like all things if it is assumed to be correct then you are bound to get some drift and change before people realise it's gone too far or is in fact incorrect in some cases).

 

Yeah that's true. I mean I was at Uni 'just' nine years ago but still from what I read, it seems like a totally different era to what uni is like now.

[btron3000]

17 hours ago, Edinburgh said:

Can someone post a graph or something plotting left and right and everything in between and the extremes outside? With explanations. Maybe I'll then be able to understand a little of what you lot are talking about. 

I suspect there will be pages of lefts and the right will be covered by just 3 entries: centre right, right and extreme right - with contemptible explanations. 

Or will I be surprised?

Try this out, gives you your place on the economic-left-right x-axis and authoritarian-libertarian y axis political compass thingy:

http://thebuckingjenny.blogspot.com/2012/05/political-compass.html

Some of the questions are a bit leading, but hey, it's a bit of fun. I knew where I'd end up:

[Neverbloom]

On 11/10/2018 at 12:47 AM, luisenrique said:

I agree, but there is a tendency to brand any criticism of Islam as 'Islamaphobia'.

Of course there are many out there who are genuinely bigoted who pretend to care about women's rights etc in a way to justify their bigotry, but by the same token, I've seen the reactions of people change when I make the exact same point as a white friend of mine, because apparently because I'm brown I must know what I'm talking about re: brown people, whereas the other guy is just a racist.

i think people get culture and race confused obviously they are linked but they are not the same thing

[Neverbloom]

8 hours ago, Carns said:

She drives me ******* nuts.

 

[mack]

Obviously that's a joke. The comments on that youtube video are mind boggling stupid apart from the solitary person to deduce that it wasn't serious.

@btron3000 I'm basically the same spot on the vertical, but a few rows over to the left on the horizontal.

[luisenrique]

Mine is eerily similar

 

[Neverbloom]

20 minutes ago, mack said:

Obviously that's a joke. The comments on that youtube video are mind boggling stupid apart from the solitary person to deduce that it wasn't serious.

@btron3000 I'm basically the same spot on the vertical, but a few rows over to the left on the horizontal.

that was a joke? because no one seemed to find it funny, with humour like that she should be selling out comedy tours

 

this was mine, somewhat similar to Gandhi, not at all similar to him apart from that though(according to the website)

[mack]

You don't recognise it was a joke, playing into her reputation as a man hating ultra-feminist kill all men figure? It didn't get a reaction like it was a comedy club but the audience seemed to get it was a joke.

Not to mention the alternative is she actually feels resentful of having to feed her child. Which is insane.

[Neverbloom]

well if you have spent 5 minutes on twitter you would know she is insane one of those typical kill all men feminists which make actual feminists look crazy, i am anti her kind of feminism not anti wendy's kind of feminism for example

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5729209/Hardline-feminist-Clementine-Ford-removed-speaker-suicide-charity-Lifeline-complaints.html







 

[thefairy]

6 hours ago, luisenrique said:

Mine is eerily similar

 

echo chamber much.

6 hours ago, mack said:

You don't recognise it was a joke, playing into her reputation as a man hating ultra-feminist kill all men figure? It didn't get a reaction like it was a comedy club but the audience seemed to get it was a joke.

Not to mention the alternative is she actually feels resentful of having to feed her child. Which is insane.

what joke? that's funny to you?

the whiteknight is strong with this one.

[marron]

If there's a lesson from the old club pol thread it was that certain political beliefs don't lend themselves to understanding context very well.