Squad Development 2018/19 Part 2

[MistahCampoy]

1 hour ago, Upthehill said:

I don't understand how people don't see why we need it. Or at least what the purpose is.

Does the Australian football community not understand how much more money CFG and SFC will spend than the rest of us if the cap is removed? Do we all understand that we will never see a 1st place or a grand final again? Who here enjoys watching Juve win Serie A every ******* season? How about the same 3 teams in La Liga? L1 and PSG? How about China? How about the oil leagues? No thanks from me

I think we would be able to spend more than SFC if it is removed just not CFG

 

[Unlimited]

And watch CCM come last every season and make their already abysmal attendance figures dive even further 

But hey, it’s OK because Melbourne City coming first every season will improve the standard of our league... 

[hawks2767]

Don't scrap the cap just double it for now, make it an even 5 mil.

Would give the A League a massive boost in signing players and being able to retain them.

[Prydzopolis]

38 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Melbourne City coming first every season will improve the standard of our league... 

It’s a great myth that City will come in & spend big money. They’ve had ample opportunity since there entry to do so & aside from David Villa have done very little.

Remember Melbourne is part of the scheme by CFG to circumvent FFP. They are interested in the success of the A-League for there own bottom line, don’t think they are going to spend a 5-10 million each year on marquees

[Burztur]

11 hours ago, Upthehill said:

I don't understand how people don't see why we need it. Or at least what the purpose is.

Does the Australian football community not understand how much more money CFG and SFC will spend than the rest of us if the cap is removed? Do we all understand that we will never see a 1st place or a grand final again? Who here enjoys watching Juve win Serie A every ******* season? How about the same 3 teams in La Liga? L1 and PSG? How about China? How about the oil leagues? No thanks from me

I’m being deliberately naive but the current cap system which is in place is broken. It doesn’t balance out the league. You already see SFC and MV exploiting it and CCM scraping the bottom of the barrel. This is already when we have a cap floor of 10%.

If City wanted to spent more money within the current cap system to win the league they could. They even tried with the Cahill rule where they essentially had 3 marquees. Frankly, the HAL is much lower in their pecking order and they would rather spend on their MLS, JLeague or CSL investments first before us. 

I get the need to provide some balance so clubs can’t simply buy out the comp but this is when transfer fees and foreign player restrictions come in. If CCM unearthed a great young player and City wanted to buy them out for next year, having to pay a transfer fee will help CCM financially and it would a fair trade for both clubs. You can even introduce a tax so the FFA get a cut. 

I just don’t like the cap because it isn’t doing what it is intended and it perpetuates a falsehood that the HAL is balanced.

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Burztur

[JustWandering]

A big problem with the cap is that you can't bring in new players if you current players are not working out. If they redesigned the cap to something like allowing only 4 players on salaries above 500K but allowing any number of players under 500K, managers could freeze players out and bring in quality to replace them. You would not see the relaxed attitudes in players that we are seeing today.

[Erebus]

How has the salary cap worked? CCM have been bottom 2 for 5 years.

SFC and MV have been consistently in the top 4 for the past 5 years.

its supposed to be an "equaliser" and keep "clubs sustainable"  - both have failed. How many players have had to leave their successful team because there is no room in the cap for them? Champsionship winning teams are gutted every 2 years because player values go up and the cap can't keep them. It decimated us. Its decimated other Champion teams in the past.

Salary cap works for sports that are only played in 1 country (NRL, AFL, NFL) but football is global and we're competing with the entire world for players. People are sick of the turnover of players at HAL clubs. Salary cap causes this.

The current system is broken. I don't care if SFC win every year. It means the other teams need to step up and do something to topple them. It means when they lose a match its a real upset not these fabricated "upsets" that happen now. How is it an upset in today's HAL when everyone effectively has the same wage bill?

You complain about Juve winning every year. That's because they've invested in their backroom. They built and own their own stadium. Their revenue streams have jumped significantly. Its up to the other clubs to catch up now. Its why many Serie A clubs are now looking at building and owning their own stadiums. Its forcing other Serie A clubs to invest properly to compete with them.

[DeeDee]

2 hours ago, Erebus said:

How has the salary cap worked? CCM have been bottom 2 for 5 years.

SFC and MV have been consistently in the top 4 for the past 5 years.

its supposed to be an "equaliser" and keep "clubs sustainable"  - both have failed. How many players have had to leave their successful team because there is no room in the cap for them? Champsionship winning teams are gutted every 2 years because player values go up and the cap can't keep them. It decimated us. Its decimated other Champion teams in the past.

Salary cap works for sports that are only played in 1 country (NRL, AFL, NFL) but football is global and we're competing with the entire world for players. People are sick of the turnover of players at HAL clubs. Salary cap causes this.

The current system is broken. I don't care if SFC win every year. It means the other teams need to step up and do something to topple them. It means when they lose a match its a real upset not these fabricated "upsets" that happen now. How is it an upset in today's HAL when everyone effectively has the same wage bill?

You complain about Juve winning every year. That's because they've invested in their backroom. They built and own their own stadium. Their revenue streams have jumped significantly. Its up to the other clubs to catch up now. Its why many Serie A clubs are now looking at building and owning their own stadiums. Its forcing other Serie A clubs to invest properly to compete with them.

I'm happy for the cap to go as much as anyone, to bring more talent in, align ourselves with the football world ect ect.

But your points make little sense, and their points that a few people make, that make no sense. And its just nonsense to deflect from the reality of big fish dominate in football, so don't deny it.

 

How has the salary cap worked? CCM have been bottom 2 for 5 years.   -  And you honestly think no cap would have saved them, the other 9 teams would have gotten 2,3 maybe 4x better whilst ccm remained a rabble. If your a rabble in a capped league to that extent nothing will change. With no cap they probably wouldn't even exist...

SFC and MV have been consistently in the top 4 for the past 5 years.  - Once again, they have been that consistent with a cap, imagine if they kept all their best players and added more, theyd have more titles without a cap, and good on them. But the cap worked in equalizing the comp wether you like it or not. 

its supposed to be an "equaliser" and keep "clubs sustainable"  - both have failed. How many players have had to leave their successful team because there is no room in the cap for them? Champsionship winning teams are gutted every 2 years because player values go up and the cap can't keep them. It decimated us. Its decimated other Champion teams in the past.    - sustainability with vs without a cap could very much be anything, but once again, the cap is so players do move around hence the equaliser, hence decimating other champion teams as an attempt to equalize the comp. Which is why thus far 60% have won, and should be 70% (lets not talk about it)

Salary cap works for sports that are only played in 1 country (NRL, AFL, NFL) but football is global and we're competing with the entire world for players. People are sick of the turnover of players at HAL clubs. Salary cap causes this.   - Agreed, but it will always be natural for players to move on, as all clubs will only pay to a certain limit and players naturally want to progress. But it would be good to stop players leaving for last pay days in nuffie middle east and china leagues.

The current system is broken. I don't care if SFC win every year. It means the other teams need to step up and do something to topple them. It means when they lose a match its a real upset not these fabricated "upsets" that happen now. How is it an upset in today's HAL when everyone effectively has the same wage bill?   - This is just a weird statement. But i get it, we want clubs to reach for the stars, and everyone loves an underdog. But in our market, everyone also wants a shot at the title, and its deemed risky to keep a club afloat with zero success for years and years. 

You complain about Juve winning every year. That's because they've invested in their backroom. They built and own their own stadium. Their revenue streams have jumped significantly. Its up to the other clubs to catch up now. Its why many Serie A clubs are now looking at building and owning their own stadiums. Its forcing other Serie A clubs to invest properly to compete with them.   - makes little sense. Juve dominate because they are rich, monopolize and have their whole machine working to perfection through heavy investment. The other top teams can try to invest properly and compete again, but the rest of the comp is hopeing for a) a dream leicester run and couple of years before decimated by big clubs, b) a billionaire take over, or c) a big club to make mistakes. 



Otherwise they are content because they have grown up and lived for years with this culture of always being a small club and celebrating the little victories and reaching a dream maybe one day. And that is the greatest thing about football. At the end of the day this is a young country, with a minority who understand this culture and tribalism. The majority struggle to attend when their club is ****, or play in a **** stadium. But without a cap we would hope the big clubs can sustain the league with big fan bases and big players, and the smaller clubs can find ways to continue attracting their current and new fans with exciting players or other initiatives. 

But all in all, the salary cap has worked, but we want the shackles off, we don't want the league equalized. We want clubs, and more importantly our cliub to be the best it can, and take football in this country as far as it can.

[matty]

Even increasing the cap (let alone doing away with it) would result in little more than overpaid players being further overpaid. Aussies playing in the aleague are earning more than their worth. 

[GunnerWanderer]

The removal of the salary cap should be further down the priority list. It may be foreign to non Australians but it’s long established in our codes. 

Surely things like introducing xfer fees, flexibility with squad sizes and ******* off gallop should be higher up the list.

xfer fees or lack of them is a joke some 12/13 years in... if we had them the ffa wouldn’t have to make up rules for DeSilva to play for ESFC, fornarolli could have went to Perth instead of rotting on the bench and we could have sent Llortene to mariners for a happy meal. 

It would also give the chance for ACL clubs to get established players if they wanted to improve ahead of the tournament. 

Salary cap really only exists now so owners can cap their losses 

it would be interesting if the majority of the league wanted them gone, I reckon only the Russian for esfc would want them gone 

he’s pissed close to 50 million away and doesn’t seem to care 

 

[Upthehill]

7 hours ago, Erebus said:

How has the salary cap worked? CCM have been bottom 2 for 5 years.

SFC and MV have been consistently in the top 4 for the past 5 years.

its supposed to be an "equaliser" and keep "clubs sustainable"  - both have failed. How many players have had to leave their successful team because there is no room in the cap for them? Champsionship winning teams are gutted every 2 years because player values go up and the cap can't keep them. It decimated us. Its decimated other Champion teams in the past.

Salary cap works for sports that are only played in 1 country (NRL, AFL, NFL) but football is global and we're competing with the entire world for players. People are sick of the turnover of players at HAL clubs. Salary cap causes this.

The current system is broken. I don't care if SFC win every year. It means the other teams need to step up and do something to topple them. It means when they lose a match its a real upset not these fabricated "upsets" that happen now. How is it an upset in today's HAL when everyone effectively has the same wage bill?

You complain about Juve winning every year. That's because they've invested in their backroom. They built and own their own stadium. Their revenue streams have jumped significantly. Its up to the other clubs to catch up now. Its why many Serie A clubs are now looking at building and owning their own stadiums. Its forcing other Serie A clubs to invest properly to compete with them.

You’ve cherry picked information to suit your point. And twisted some to make others.

Weve had more clubs winning trophies than most leagues since our inception than most other leagues. 

Your point about global competition makes no sense, only 3 foreign players normally go under the cap, so that excuse is pretty fragile.

Coaches and back room staff obviously made a difference but even with our ACL winning coach we still had 2 bottom(ish) of the table finishes.

And sorry that’s absolute garbage about Juve, they have the capacity and draw cards to monopolise some of the best players in the world. If there is a perceived gap in output they simply go buy who they want. And Juve is just one of those examples. Trying to ignore the Chelsea’s/MC/PSGs of the world is ridiculous.

To the point above about MCFG, it most certainly isn’t a myth. Look at their spending in the MLS, they’ve created a profitable club by bringing names and they will do the same here if given space.

Im not saying the cap is suitable in its current form, it definitely needs changes but removing it all together is madman talk

[Upthehill]

1 hour ago, GunnerWanderer said:

The removal of the salary cap should be further down the priority list. It may be foreign to non Australians but it’s long established in our codes. 

Surely things like introducing xfer fees, flexibility with squad sizes and ******* off gallop should be higher up the list.

xfer fees or lack of them is a joke some 12/13 years in... if we had them the ffa wouldn’t have to make up rules for DeSilva to play for ESFC, fornarolli could have went to Perth instead of rotting on the bench and we could have sent Llortene to mariners for a happy meal. 

It would also give the chance for ACL clubs to get established players if they wanted to improve ahead of the tournament. 

Salary cap really only exists now so owners can cap their losses 

it would be interesting if the majority of the league wanted them gone, I reckon only the Russian for esfc would want them gone 

he’s pissed close to 50 million away and doesn’t seem to care 

 

Spoke to a birdie from MCFC, they most definitely want the cap gone but not the foreign player restrictions. They’re a highly attractive club based on culture (outside the coach) and want to make it a home for the best Aussie players. It’s their belief that it requires more than just a big marquee, but a stacked squad around them to put arses on seats

[BoyFromTheWest]

The salary cap issue - isn't this the decision of the club owners themselves?  They want to remove or restructure the cap because they don't like how it is working for them.

There will always be player movement, with or without the cap.  Players don't get game time and move to improve their opportunities.  Players want to test themselves against the world and take opportunities to go OS.  I would oppose lifting the visa player number too much as that would have an impact on local talent and the national team, as critics in UK suggest has happened in England.  Most teams have a majority of OS players so that English players don't compete in the highest levels and the English team doesn't improve...

Transfer fees are a must!! 

[StringerBellend]

most clubs don’t even fully use marquee allocation as it is. I don’t know why people think that dropping the cap will result on clubs lashing Brewster’s on top players

[Redwog]

I think until the opportunities for teams to make genuine income is addressed, there will have to remain some cap. For sure, in the short term there are some sensible tweaks such as some type transfer system within the league that doesn't hurt clubs and players. And some flexibility in terms of terminations so replacements can be found without players in limbo for the season. Adequate protection to youth squad places, ensuring some obligation to local development. Finally a reinterpretation of visa rules to ensure we get some quality players and a bit of glitter to help market and grow the game. 

MLS is still a better analogue tha  Euro leagues if we want a way out of the malaise. There are big differences but enough similarity that importing some administration expertise wouldn't be a bad idea. 

[Upthehill]

1 hour ago, StringerBellend said:

most clubs don’t even fully use marquee allocation as it is. I don’t know why people think that dropping the cap will result on clubs lashing Brewster’s on top players

It only takes one club to do it and it’s a disaster for everyone else.

Youll probably find the salary cap removal entices the odd owner that will spend up.

Erebus is absolutely right on some points, mainly the cap is done poorly, it definitely needs a change, but abolishion will be a mistake we can’t unwind.

[StringerBellend]

45 minutes ago, Upthehill said:

It only takes one club to do it and it’s a disaster for everyone else.

Youll probably find the salary cap removal entices the odd owner that will spend up.

Erebus is absolutely right on some points, mainly the cap is done poorly, it definitely needs a change, but abolishion will be a mistake we can’t unwind.

Btw the im in favour of the cap

My point is that those in favour of its abolishment, argue that we will see a bunch of players who now go to MLS and China come here, which is false, the cap doesn’t stop clubs could lashing crazy money on players

[Upthehill]

22 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

Btw the im in favour of the cap

My point is that those in favour of its abolishment, argue that we will see a bunch of players who now go to MLS and China come here, which is false, the cap doesn’t stop clubs could lashing crazy money on players

It won’t entice those players, you’re right. My concern is clubs hoarding Australian talent where the top end players are mostly spread across the clubs.

[Upthehill]

22 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

Btw the im in favour of the cap

My point is that those in favour of its abolishment, argue that we will see a bunch of players who now go to MLS and China come here, which is false, the cap doesn’t stop clubs could lashing crazy money on players

It won’t entice those players, you’re right. My concern is clubs hoarding Australian talent where the top end players are mostly spread across the clubs.

[Burztur]

Question - Is there a way to stop the hoarding of Aussie players without a cap?  

I don’t think hoarding will be that big of an issue since any Aussie player worth their salt would want to make it in Europe. 

If the cap was gone, City aren’t going to buy Mooy, Rogic and Ryan for example.

[StringerBellend]

7 minutes ago, Burztur said:

Question - Is there a way to stop the hoarding of Aussie players without a cap?  

I don’t think hoarding will be that big of an issue since any Aussie player worth their salt would want to make it in Europe. 

If the cap was gone, City aren’t going to buy Mooy, Rogic and Ryan for example.

We are hoarding pacey wingers that can’t finish 

[wswnick]

Sotirio could be off to Western United... Or France...

[ManfredSchaefer]

7 minutes ago, wswnick said:

Sotirio could be off to Western United... Or France...

Knowing Jaush he'll aim for Western United and actually hit France

[StringerBellend]

Five Dock Me$$i $tay$

Edited March 24, 2019 by StringerBellend

[Erebus]

In the past I've bandied about a change to the salary cap in that the cap floor is raised significantly to what it is now and clubs that turn a profit can spend a % of those profits on salaries.

That way successful clubs can invest more in their team, but not outside their means. I think Germany has something like this don't they?

Of course, transfer fees will be absolutely necessary for this to be implemented because atm HAL clubs are losing so much money with no transfer system - and lets not discuss them letting players go overseas for next to nothing.

[Bellby]

On 22/03/2019 at 8:28 AM, JustWandering said:

A big problem with the cap is that you can't bring in new players if you current players are not working out. If they redesigned the cap to something like allowing only 4 players on salaries above 500K but allowing any number of players under 500K, managers could freeze players out and bring in quality to replace them. You would not see the relaxed attitudes in players that we are seeing today.

Is there a relaxed attitude with players though?

Hypothetically if there were players relaxing, it would be those on marquee wages who have had a decent career elsewhere prior to coming to the A League.  The ones on the lower echelon who are fighting for their next contract, I doubt would have anymore of a relaxed attitude then what is normal. This is how they make ends meat, most are on a wage similar (or less then) me or you, & most want to head O/S. 

[wswtragic]

Quote

Sotirio has been with the Wanderers since 2013 and dedicated a recent goal celebration to fans that have questioned his ability in recent seasons. (Goal.com)

"Fans that have questioned his ability" - that would be all of us?

[mack]

7 minutes ago, wswtragic said:

(Goal.com)

[wswnick]

Juric linked to a move to Indonesia...

[matty]

4 hours ago, wswnick said:

Juric linked to a move to Indonesia...

That's a real shame