Australian Current Affairs Thread (not a Politics Thread) lol

[marron]

No,  it's not.

That's how he may present it, but knowingly fueling alt right communities, and laughing about it, shows otherwise.  Directly marginalizing already marginalised communities, shows otherwise. Getting people to blame pronoun use for their social position shows otherwise.  

[ManfredSchaefer]

4 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Nope...that's not his aim.

Dividing and blaming is certainly what's happening...but that's what he's arguing against.

Wow Wendy...just wow.

He is ALL about dividing and blaming. That's is entire raison d'etre, his modus vivendi. He yammers on and on about post-modernism and cultural marxism as if they are some kind of existential threat to western society, whilst he happily has his pseudo-intellectual '12 points' get taken up as a manifesto by the likes of Alex Jones, Paul Watson etc.

Read this critique of him and then tell us if you still think he's not about division and blame

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

P.S. unlike Peterson every single academic I have come into contact with professionally and as a student have never made such a big living out of being a shill for 'alt-light' beliefs. They have been invested 100% in exploring ideas, research and teaching. Not turning themselves into a cause celebre with a Patreon account.

[marron]

Privelege is also a thing. 

Arguments can be made about who has it.

But at the very least people with money have it.

And it becomes entrenched. It can be entrenched through government AND through private control.   This denies opportunity to others. 

Anyone who suggests otherwise, I am immediately suspicious.  

[wendybr]

This is an interesting analysis how and why the huge influence of people like JP, Joe Rogan and co has come about....and why it's likely to continue.

And what Rogan says at the end is very insightful.

 

 

 

[wendybr]

45 minutes ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

Wow Wendy...just wow.

He is ALL about dividing and blaming. That's is entire raison d'etre, his modus vivendi. He yammers on and on about post-modernism and cultural marxism as if they are some kind of existential threat to western society, whilst he happily has his pseudo-intellectual '12 points' get taken up as a manifesto by the likes of Alex Jones, Paul Watson etc.

Read this critique of him and then tell us if you still think he's not about division and blame

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

P.S. unlike Peterson every single academic I have come into contact with professionally and as a student have never made such a big living out of being a shill for 'alt-light' beliefs. They have been invested 100% in exploring ideas, research and teaching. Not turning themselves into a cause celebre with a Patreon account.

Well...at least that "How dangerous is Jordan Peterson...? " type heading is a bit more representative of an article that is critical of him than the one posted last week by Carns, which didn't present him as dangerous at all.

Most of the article is debatable, and the quotes were from those who are hostile and critical, rather than presenting any semblance of balance.

As for your final comment there Manny, Milo Y had a go at him in a video question on Q&A.... for betraying the alt right, basically. And I've posted things here  in which Peterson expressed his contempt for the neo Nazi/white supremacist views of the Alt Right. He is not a "shill for the Alt -right", although some latched on to some of his views when he came to prominence a few years back.  

[ManfredSchaefer]

Oh dear Wendy

Did I say "Shill for the alt-right"?

Read again.

And as for balance, when Peterson brings that into his polemics that are a misbegotten hodge-podge of conspiracy theories, insecure old white man posturing and shameless hucksterism then you might have a point. However until then let's all do what JP asks us to do and ensure that we keep those cultural marxists and virtue signallers under the pump so western civilisation doesn't collapse in a screaming heap of LGBTIQ+ sponsored social justice warring.

[wendybr]

7 minutes ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

Oh dear Wendy

Did I say "Shill for the alt-right"?

Read again.

 

Ohhh OK!   

Sorry!

But that's what he is called...well sort of. Less so now then previously though.

Quote

And as for balance, when Peterson brings that into his polemics that are a misbegotten hodge-podge of conspiracy theories, insecure old white man posturing and shameless hucksterism then you might have a point. However until then let's all do what JP asks us to do and ensure that we keep those cultural marxists and virtue signallers under the pump so western civilisation doesn't collapse in a screaming heap of LGBTIQ+ sponsored social justice warring.

 

 

OK.

[marron]

Also, get married, and make sure your wife doesn't work Manny.

 

[wendybr]

3 minutes ago, marron said:

Also, get married, and make sure your wife doesn't work Manny.

 

 

[Neverbloom]

that is what i respect about wendy a lot, she gives time to differing opinions and seeks out every viewpoint so she can form her own opinion, unlike some people

[marron]

Here's the thing Wendy.

There's truth in what he says about that (even though the obsession with marriage is just a tad weird).

There are all sorts of effects on our society of having changed the "traditional" (of course, it changes all the time, but traditional if you are short-sighted) family model, and giving women equal rights. Some of them are problematic.

What we can't do though is simple flick a switch and change things to be how they were, especially when that means taking away rights of people to do things that we take for granted.

We have to work on what issues we face now, in new ways, because we have new situations that didn't exist before. Rather than refusing to accept that things are different, and encouraging people to view things that were done in the past as some sort of idyll with no problems.

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by marron

[Cynth]

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is an academic who teaches in psychology, he is not a clinician  or a psychologist in the traditional sense. 

 Just sayin.....

[wendybr]

1 minute ago, Neverbloom said:

that is what i respect about wendy a lot, she gives time to differing opinions and seeks out every viewpoint so she can form her own opinion, unlike some people

I've changed quite a bit.  

 

 

PS You keep watching JP Goat!

Lots of "food for thought"...as you recognise.

And your "Friendly Gordies" guy is usually spot on too (even though his presentation is a bit over the top for me).

 

Oooo...just remembered his parody of JP (and the others).

Posting it again....because it is so funny! 

 

 

[marron]

Yeah, sorry Cynth.

But what I meant was - anybody in that wide field should have an understanding that stimulus causes response. RIght?

That the reason we are different is because of the different stimuli we all receive.

They will differ in terms of how much these stimuli have effects, and what the effects are, and differ in their focus as to what aids those effects, or how it happens, actually, - but that's the bottom line.

I just don't quite understand how someone with that basic building block can dismiss change so readily.

On the one hand, arguing that men are emasculated or whatever by modern society. Why are there all these issues? It's because of society!!!

But on the other, refusing to see that others are also affected by society, when it's stacked against them.

Like, if that's a Marxist plot, then what's the difference anyway? If you are arguing on one side, you are for a plot of some sort.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by marron

[marron]

Which goes back to what I said about privilege.

I'm not ashamed to say, hey, the reason I live in a shitbox house where I do is at least partly because of privilege stacked both FOR and AGAINST. I can own my choices, AND say, but my life would have been easier if ****wits in government and the establishment weren't making choices to line their already full pockets. Me saying so isn't an excuse. I could have worked harder, and that's fine. But it's still the reality. Trying to divert energy away from the fact that that's the way things work is, IMO, only serving those in positions of privilege. I have no interest in anybody who's doing that. They get enough help already.

Edited March 9, 2019 by marron

[Cynth]

4 minutes ago, marron said:

Yeah, sorry Cynth.

But what I meant was - anybody in that wide field should have an understanding that stimulus causes response. RIght?

That the reason we are different is because of the different stimuli we all receive.

They will differ in terms of how much these stimuli have effects, and what the effects are, and differ in their focus as to what aids those effects, or how it happens, actually, - but that's the bottom line.

I just don't quite understand how someone with that basic building block can dismiss change so readily.

On the one hand, arguing that men are emasculated or whatever by modern society. Why are there all these issues? It's because of society!!!

But on the other, refusing to see that others are also affected by society, when it's stacked against them.

Like, if that's a Marxist plot, then what's the difference anyway? If you are arguing on one side, you are for a plot of some sort.

 

 

 

 

Oh I wasn’t offended don’t worry. I think that the problem academics have is getting caught up in their own area of expertise. Psychology has long expanded from philosophical and evolutionary models that JP refers to, to incorporate neurobiology, attachment, trauma etc and broad sweeping statements about societal influences need to be tempered by knowledge in these other areas of psychology. 

 

[wendybr]

3 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is an academic who teaches in psychology, he is not a clinician  or a psychologist in the traditional sense. 

 Just sayin.....

He's had always had a practice Cynth...and often refers to his clients in his lectures.

From Wiki...

"For most of his career, Peterson had an active clinical practice, seeing about 20 people a week. "

He might have let that slide now, I think...since he travels so much.

 

[StringerBellend]

2 hours ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

I saw that clown and after watching for a few minutes turned off.

He's the kind of lazy populist 'academic' that gets all the angry white teenage middle class boys in a lather because he tells them they're victims, and then makes millions from his cult-like followers through pandering to their interests.

In essence he's the Twisted Sister of the RWFW 'intelligentsia'.

^ this

[Cynth]

1 minute ago, wendybr said:

He's had always had a practice Cynth...and often refers to his clients in his lectures.

From Wiki...

"For most of his career, Peterson had an active clinical practice, seeing about 20 people a week. "

He might have let that slide now, I think...since he travels so much.

 

Yes Wendy, however JP is a career academic who chose to see clients not a clinician. His expertise is in social and personality psychology.

 However I very highly doubt he saw 20 clients per week as well as being a full time professor at Toronto. That is a full-time clinical load. Meanwhile he prolifically wrote books, lectured and supervised students. I think Wiki is not so good a source. He gave up his side practice after accusations of misconduct by the way. 

His career is academia was always his primary thing. 

[StringerBellend]

2 hours ago, wendybr said:

Here's almost 3.5 hours of interesting conversation...

 

 

 

I’d rather Jam my private parts in a car door than listen to that guy for 3.5 minutes 

Edited March 9, 2019 by StringerBellend

[ManfredSchaefer]

26 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is an academic who teaches in psychology, he is not a clinician  or a psychologist in the traditional sense. 

 Just sayin.....

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is...

That's about as far as I'd go.

[Cynth]

1 minute ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is...

That's about as far as I'd go.

You know....if you watch his old stuff before he became....well the societal commentator that he is now..., his old university lectures, he was a wonderful, engaging lecturer. The content was fascinating in the areas he had expertise. I would have loved to have been a student of his. 

[wendybr]

39 minutes ago, marron said:

Here's the thing Wendy.

There's truth in what he says about that (even though the obsession with marriage is just a tad weird).

There are all sorts of effects on our society of having changed the "traditional" (of course, it changes all the time, but traditional if you are short-sighted) family model, and giving women equal rights. Some of them are problematic.

What we can't do though is simple flick a switch and change things to be how they were, especially when that means taking away rights of people to do things that we take for granted.

We have to work on what issues we face now, in new ways, because we have new situations that didn't exist before. Rather than refusing to accept that things are different, and encouraging people to view things that were done in the past as some sort of idyll with no problems.

 

I don't disagree with that Marron.

But maybe what I do admire about Peterson is that he does think things through (despite what has been said here and in Manny's cheap shot article) and he doesn't really have a one size fits all solution.

He does look to how things were done in the past for some solutions...but  then he offers other suggestions that really haven't been around in recent times.

Someone above said he appeals to young men which encourages them to feel they are victims, but that's the absolute OPPOSITE of what he tells them.

He tells them  - to take responsibility for themselves, to harden up and sort out their own problems

                        - to look after themselves (care for yourself as if you are someone you are responsible for caring for)

                        - to NOT play the victim, whine, and blame others eg You can't blame your parents for anything from about 18 years old - get yourself sorted etc

I do not accept that it's as simple as that for many young people to start on a better road to sorting out their problems, but it's on the right track.

Re marriage....yeah - his ideas may be a bit narrow. But well .....despite the successes of many people raised in non- traditional families, and conversely, the troubles of others who are raised within traditional families... he's probably right about the general benefit of being raised within a stable family...isn't he?

I think he is much much more realistic about the flaws of modern society, and the ways to address them  than to be merely " encouraging people to view things that were done in the past as some sort of idyll with no problems."

 

[ManfredSchaefer]

4 minutes ago, Cynth said:

You know....if you watch his old stuff before he became....well the societal commentator that he is now..., his old university lectures, he was a wonderful, engaging lecturer. The content was fascinating in the areas he had expertise. I would have loved to have been a student of his. 

He may well have been just that Cynth. Problem is he has become a willing participant in his own myth-making, with the complicity of those who have a narrative that they want to push (whether it be Incels, climate-change deniers, conservative god-botherers or dullards who think that because he's a uni academic that makes him a great cover for their intellectual inadequacy.

And just so no one can accuse me of being a Maoist Trotskyite Leninist Gender Fluid Femmo Provocateur, I find a similar level of silliness with those who worship Chomsky, Singer and other icons of the left academia. The difference between them and Petersen though is that they never really used the accumulation of capital (i.e. personal greed) to make them wealthy off YouTube videos, personal appearances and Patreon accounts.

[wendybr]

6 minutes ago, Cynth said:

You know....if you watch his old stuff before he became....well the societal commentator that he is now..., his old university lectures, he was a wonderful, engaging lecturer. The content was fascinating in the areas he had expertise. I would have loved to have been a student of his. 

Yes - absolutely!

All the uni lectures are still good imo - even tho I don't always agree with his views or solutions to issues.

But that's always acknowledged...that both at Harvard and in Toronto, he has always been hugely popular,  engaging and successful as a lecturer/professor.

Which is why I do not believe that he is doing what he is doing out of opportunism - the opportunity for a nobody to have acknowledgement and adulation - which he surely has found) or to get rich quick.

He would need neither acknowledgement nor money, as far as I can see.

[marron]

He might tell them that stuff in his self help books Wendy but he also tells them via his other channels that itss the SJWs running a cultural marxist plot that are to blame for their problems.

The combination of those two things is very problematic. Like, a lot. Clean yourself up, and ready yourself for battle with [insert] who deserve it.

I've no doubt he's got nuance to his arguments and proposals. A stab;e environment is good yes. But the stable environment of yesterday  - married couple, mum at home - is not the reality of today, or the solution to today either, necessarily.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by marron

[wendybr]

19 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

I’d rather Jam my private parts in a car door than listen to that guy for 3.5 minutes 

Your loss Stringer.

I assume you mean JP...rather than JR.

 

[marron]

And I'm sorry Wendy and Goat too, because I can't do youtube, it just doesn't work for me absorbption wise or just life wise, with stuff like this.

 

[Cynth]

9 minutes ago, marron said:

He might tell them that stuff in his self help books Wendy but he also tells them via his other channels that itss the SJWs running a cultural marxist plot that are to blame for their problems.

The combination of those two things is very problematic. Like, a lot. Clean yourself up, and ready yourself for battle with [insert] who deserve it.

I've no doubt he's got nuance to his arguments and proposals. A stab;e environment is good yes. But the stable environment of yesterday  - married couple, mum at home - is not the reality of today, or the solution to today either, necessarily.

 

 

This I agree with. I think there is contradictions in his message now.

[Cynth]

15 minutes ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

He may well have been just that Cynth. Problem is he has become a willing participant in his own myth-making, with the complicity of those who have a narrative that they want to push (whether it be Incels, climate-change deniers, conservative god-botherers or dullards who think that because he's a uni academic that makes him a great cover for their intellectual inadequacy.

And just so no one can accuse me of being a Maoist Trotskyite Leninist Gender Fluid Femmo Provocateur, I find a similar level of silliness with those who worship Chomsky, Singer and other icons of the left academia. The difference between them and Petersen though is that they never really used the accumulation of capital (i.e. personal greed) to make them wealthy off YouTube videos, personal appearances and Patreon accounts.

Hey I like Noam Chomsky!