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Australian Current Affairs Thread (not a Politics Thread) lol

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6 minutes ago, theseeker said:

It's always the ABC or the Guardian who are quoted , funny that.

Cry ? Closet Socialist ?

Newsflash , Socialism / Communism died and was buried in 1991 , remember Mr. Gorbachev and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Some are trying to resurrect the dead body such as the Watermelon Greens and a few other desperate groups you see at random demos. Carrying photos of Marx , Lenin , Trotsky and Che Guevara.

Some of those guys had good intentions in the beginning but it could never work and didn't. Check 1991 news. 

As I said you don't deal in facts.

We have a systen that allows major corporations and multinationals to pay no tax while others do. That is a FACT.

Conservative welfare......lol.......gotta love it......:D

 

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So I reckon that Mack may close this thresd down. Agree to disagree and move on otherwise the thread will close.

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14 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

So I reckon that Mack may close this thresd down. Agree to disagree and move on otherwise the thread will close.

It'a bit like this at times.....:P......but no need to close it......:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

 

Edited by sonar

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3 hours ago, Edinburgh said:

Before you all set off on your high horses about who is the baddest at not paying tax, have a look at these:

https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-gap/Small-business-income-tax-gap/

https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-gap/Individuals-not-in-business-income-tax-gap/

https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-gap/Large-corporate-groups-income-tax-gap/

In summary, the ATO estimates, based on 2016 figures, the tax gaps are:

- $11.1 bn for small businesses, a 12.5% shortfall

- $8.4 bn for individuals not in business, a 6.4% shortfall

- $2 bn for large corporations, a 4% shortfall

Very true...

I have been to a number of ATO seminars and in only 2 items on individual tax returns the ATO believes their is almost 4.5 billion dollars... the over claims for use of phones for work purposes and travel claims..

The ATO has developed a number of computer formulas to pick these up... the travel issue alone they say cost 3 billion dollars in over refunds...

No one is saying big business does not cheat, and things like transfer pricing, royalties etc are common place but to pretend its only big business is laughable..

Typical example as to what happens in some cases.... an unemployed person is on social security and over a certain amount they loose $0.25 cents for every dollar they earn.

So unemployed person gets a job at a local cafe, do they declare their income and loose effectively 25% in social security plus whatever tax ....

So what happens is the income is not declared so no tax is paid, social security is over paid, the cafe does not declare its income to pay the guy so no GST and no income tax on the earnings.

Its a vexed question as to  at what point you reduce social security when someone starts to earn income... because in a practical sense people are setting there own levels anyway...

It may not sound fair, in fact when people hear about it the objections are very loud... however its by far the fairest tax their is and taxes wealth...

Expenditure taxes in Australia the GST if applied to all goods and services and increased to around 18% could almost replace income tax. Then give rebates to low income earners.. Still have income tax but much lower than it is today...

The cries are many against this... but the actual history is the poor person can only spend what they have, and as you get more income you spend more ... as you spend more you pay more tax... will never happen as the arguments against it are made principally by people in powerful position in social security areas who have little to no understanding of how the tax system works... the secret is providing weekly cash rebates to low income earners...  to offset much of the GST they pay... 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Midfielder said:

Very true...

I have been to a number of ATO seminars and in only 2 items on individual tax returns the ATO believes their is almost 4.5 billion dollars... the over claims for use of phones for work purposes and travel claims..

The ATO has developed a number of computer formulas to pick these up... the travel issue alone they say cost 3 billion dollars in over refunds...

No one is saying big business does not cheat, and things like transfer pricing, royalties etc are common place but to pretend its only big business is laughable..

Typical example as to what happens in some cases.... an unemployed person is on social security and over a certain amount they loose $0.25 cents for every dollar they earn.

So unemployed person gets a job at a local cafe, do they declare their income and loose effectively 25% in social security plus whatever tax ....

So what happens is the income is not declared so no tax is paid, social security is over paid, the cafe does not declare its income to pay the guy so no GST and no income tax on the earnings.

Its a vexed question as to  at what point you reduce social security when someone starts to earn income... because in a practical sense people are setting there own levels anyway...

It may not sound fair, in fact when people hear about it the objections are very loud... however its by far the fairest tax their is and taxes wealth...

Expenditure taxes in Australia the GST if applied to all goods and services and increased to around 18% could almost replace income tax. Then give rebates to low income earners.. Still have income tax but much lower than it is today...

The cries are many against this... but the actual history is the poor person can only spend what they have, and as you get more income you spend more ... as you spend more you pay more tax... will never happen as the arguments against it are made principally by people in powerful position in social security areas who have little to no understanding of how the tax system works... the secret is providing weekly cash rebates to low income earners...  to offset much of the GST they pay... 

 

 

 

What you do is end tax minimisation from large and multinationals.....it's a legal rort  and unfair. Get rid of cash and all payments become electronic.....no more cash in hand and no black economy where no gst is paid.

Make all companies pay the fuel excise like everyone else. I bet they rush to electric asap.

Edited by sonar

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50 minutes ago, sonar said:

What you do is end tax minimisation from large and multinationals.....it's a legal rort  and unfair. Get rid of cash and all payments become electronic.....no more cash in hand and no black economy where no gst is paid.

Make all companies pay the fuel excise like everyone else. I bet they rush to electric asap.

Sonar

I am not saying big corporations are innocent and that they do many things... unknown to many is our ATO is very active in this area and has had many many many major victories, some of the notable are google, Shell Oil... just in these two alone close to 3 billion dollars was raised and in the case of Shell Oil an ongoing amount of over 800 million per year.... but its good news so it never gets published.

I am not saying that big corporations should not be hit harder.

However what ED posted to ignore other aspects of cheating thinking its only small amounts is simply wrong... 

My question is the structure of our current systems of social security and taxation law, is such that it encourages cheating on a grand scale at the lower ends and when added together its a big big number.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Midfielder said:

Sonar

I am not saying big corporations are innocent and that they do many things... unknown to many is our ATO is very active in this area and has had many many many major victories, some of the notable are google, Shell Oil... just in these two alone close to 3 billion dollars was raised and in the case of Shell Oil an ongoing amount of over 800 million per year.... but its good news so it never gets published.

I am not saying that big corporations should not be hit harder.

However what ED posted to ignore other aspects of cheating thinking its only small amounts is simply wrong... 

My question is the structure of our current systems of social security and taxation law, is such that it encourages cheating on a grand scale at the lower ends and when added together its a big big number.

 

 

If you mean me, huh? What are you saying? I did not say or infer any such thing!

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11 minutes ago, Edinburgh said:

If you mean me, huh? What are you saying? I did not say or infer any such thing!

No you posted what the other areas were costing, maybe I worded it wrong... I was saying you posted how much other areas costs... 

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8 hours ago, Paul01 said:

So I reckon that Mack may close this thresd down. Agree to disagree and move on otherwise the thread will close.

'Ello 'ello 'ello!

What's been going on here, then?

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12 hours ago, Edinburgh said:

Before you all set off on your high horses about who is the baddest at not paying tax, have a look at these:

https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-gap/Small-business-income-tax-gap/

https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-gap/Individuals-not-in-business-income-tax-gap/

https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-gap/Large-corporate-groups-income-tax-gap/

In summary, the ATO estimates, based on 2016 figures, the tax gaps are:

- $11.1 bn for small businesses, a 12.5% shortfall

- $8.4 bn for individuals not in business, a 6.4% shortfall

- $2 bn for large corporations, a 4% shortfall

With all respect Ed, and you can correct me if I’m wrong....these are tax amounts of what is declared income from corporations and what they then pay in tax as opposed to what is calculated or expected, yes? This doesn’t count corporations who evade paying tax in this country and often in any country despite making huge profits in this country and often not even employing many people in this country. 

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12 hours ago, theseeker said:

No you give me all the statistics i'm not your research assistant . Not a valid comparison in any case. 

The  corporates employ people , who pay tax and spend their money in the economy. Who do the welfare rorters  employ , their local drug dealer ?

Yeah that’s what I thought you’d say. 

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On 04/02/2020 at 5:15 AM, theseeker said:

Burztur , this was my answer. If you want more details read the papers or check the internet news.

So she resigned despite not breaking any laws?

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11 hours ago, Cynth said:

With all respect Ed, and you can correct me if I’m wrong....these are tax amounts of what is declared income from corporations and what they then pay in tax as opposed to what is calculated or expected, yes? This doesn’t count corporations who evade paying tax in this country and often in any country despite making huge profits in this country and often not even employing many people in this country. 

No. The tax gap is meant to be an estimate of the whole pie.

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11 hours ago, Cynth said:

With all respect Ed, and you can correct me if I’m wrong....these are tax amounts of what is declared income from corporations and what they then pay in tax as opposed to what is calculated or expected, yes? This doesn’t count corporations who evade paying tax in this country and often in any country despite making huge profits in this country and often not even employing many people in this country. 

Yes, the ATO has extrapolated underpaid tax (the tax gap as they call it) from their findings/reviews/audits etc, based on the correct application of tax law (and pardon my cynicism, the ATO's sometimes warped interpretations of said law).

The evasion you speak of is not illegal, those corporations are just using the existing laws to minimise their tax, as do many others (puts up his hand). The government is trying to stop this evasion by changing existing laws and/or introducing new ones. There have been a number of succesful initiatives over the years to curb such evasion and close loopholes. Unfortunately, they have not yet achieved the desired success in this area.

I'm tempted to add a few more comments in response to other related posts in here but I'd rather get on with my life,

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1 hour ago, Edinburgh said:

Yes, the ATO has extrapolated underpaid tax (the tax gap as they call it) from their findings/reviews/audits etc, based on the correct application of tax law (and pardon my cynicism, the ATO's sometimes warped interpretations of said law).

The evasion you speak of is not illegal, those corporations are just using the existing laws to minimise their tax, as do many others (puts up his hand). The government is trying to stop this evasion by changing existing laws and/or introducing new ones. There have been a number of succesful initiatives over the years to curb such evasion and close loopholes. Unfortunately, they have not yet achieved the desired success in this area.

I'm tempted to add a few more comments in response to other related posts in here but I'd rather get on with my life,

I dare say to everyone's relief this will be my last comments on this topic.

Don't forget these evil tax dodging corporates have many ordinary Australians as shareholders. Big deal you say I don't own any shares.

But there is an extremely high possibility that you do indirectly through your superannuation Your super fund invests in a range of  investments and shares form a very significant portion of most portfolios. Thus your financial return on your super would affect your retirement lifestyles. If the evil corporates are taxed out of the ball park or go broke your superannuation gets screwed.

But if your morals outweigh your desire to invest with these corporates , ring up your super fund tell them to move your investment away from the evil corporates and they will move you to a say " Cash Option". Terrible returns but hey.......

 

 

 

Edited by theseeker

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4 minutes ago, theseeker said:

I dare say to everyone's relief this will be my last comments on this topic.

Don't forget these evil tax dodging corporates have many ordinary Australians as shareholders. Big deal you say I don't own any shares.

But there is an extremely high possibility that you do indirectly through your superannuation Your super fund invests in a range of  investments and shares form a very significant portion of most portfolios. Thus your financial return on your super would affect your retirement lifestyles. If the evil corporates are taxed out of the ball park or go broke your superannuation gets screwed.

But if your morals outweigh your desire to invest with these corporates , ring up your super fund tell them to move your investment away from the evil corporates and they will move you to a say " Cash Option". Terrible returns but hey.......

 

 

 

How can you be "taxed out of the ball park " when you don't pay any tax at all...? :D

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Like gun control in the US we cannot get a debate on the Australian Tax system without many ill informed, lacking knowledge people claiming to be experts.... rarely is the actual position on any issue shown in proper context or without cherry picking lines and total miss-representation by almost everybody....

I am gonna claim a knowledge and experience base... I hold two undergraduate degrees in Accounting and Business, a post graduate diploma in corporations law and a post graduate Masters Degree in Taxation Law.

Aside from being in public practice since 1986, I have worked at TAFE NSW where I set the syllabus for the Taxation subjects / units to met CPA, CA & Tax Agent requirements and lectured at two Universities where I was heavily involved in the development of the Taxation subjects again for CPA, CA & Tax Agents Board requirements.

Beyond this I spend roughly 70 hours a year in professional development on Taxation ..

Whether people wanta believe this or not is up to them... but the ATO by world standards is an excellent organisation and by world standards or sorry say European & North American standards our tax laws are less complex. 

The point on who does not pay tax is almost at every level.... and the excuse many use is everybody does it so why not me... 

To the ATO huge credit they have cracked down on corporations and have had a lot of success almost totally unreported.... 

Some examples ...

Google ... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/dec/18/google-to-pay-4815m-in-major-win-for-australian-tax-office

Google, facebook, mircosoft ... https://www.ato.gov.au/Media-centre/Media-releases/ATO-nets-another-e-commerce-victory/

Shell ... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/aug/25/ato-slugs-shell-with-755m-bill-in-fight-against-multinational-tax-avoidance

BHP ... https://www.ecovis.com/global/the-wins-keep-coming-for-the-australian-taxation-office/

Gold .... https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-energy/huge-victory-for-ato-in-gold-gst-case-as-250m-assessment-against-ebs-refining-upheld/news-story/7c6c7c07d4300cd04dd66586308c11a4

So the argument that corporations get away with murder is totally out of date... NOT SAYING its all good, but the effect of the above cases has been estimated to be in excess of 7 billion annually.

The next two big issues are over claims on deductions and the black economy... both these areas have very talented task forces involved today the same people with won against the corportations over the past 6 years or so...

We need taxes to pay for things... enforcing tax law as it stands will do this... and as Ed showed with his links the dollars are massive...

Edited by Midfielder

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And this..........

Some of the wealthiest people in Australia pay negative tax. Whereas an Australian on a salary of $60,000 per year would pay income tax of $11,617, someone who inherited $1.2m worth of shares and received $60,000 per year in “fully franked dividends” would pay negative tax of $5,126 – they’d get money from the government. Work for a living and your take-home pay is $48,383 out of $60,000 before tax, but earn a passive income from franked dividends and your take-home pay is $65,126 out of $60,000 before tax

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36 minutes ago, Ossified said:

And this..........

Some of the wealthiest people in Australia pay negative tax. Whereas an Australian on a salary of $60,000 per year would pay income tax of $11,617, someone who inherited $1.2m worth of shares and received $60,000 per year in “fully franked dividends” would pay negative tax of $5,126 – they’d get money from the government. Work for a living and your take-home pay is $48,383 out of $60,000 before tax, but earn a passive income from franked dividends and your take-home pay is $65,126 out of $60,000 before tax

True, 

Questions...

1] I this any different to anywhere in the world at any time in History.

2] Assuming the answer to question 1 ... it has always been the case the wealthy try and avoid tax... whats important then is the Tax Office trying to get taxes and does it have heaps of wins... and the answer is YES they are trying to get taxes and YES they are having many wins...

BTW I have no idea how arrive at a dividend income of 1.2 million with a negative tax of $ 5, 126..... 

It actually works like this.

You receive 1, 200, 000 in cash dividends

If these dividends were fully franked you would receive $ 514, 285 franking credits.

The law then requires you to add the $ 1, 200, 000 to the $ 514, 285, meaning you declare an income of $ 1, 714, 285.

The tax and medicare on income of $ 1, 714, 285 is $ 804, 525 .... less the franking credits of $ 514, 285 ... meaning you pay $ 290, 230 in tax .

So the company has paid $ 514, 285 & the taxpayer has paid $ 230, 230 which is $ 804, 525 tax on an income of 1, 714, 285 or 46.93%  

Edited by Midfielder

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7 hours ago, theseeker said:

I dare say to everyone's relief this will be my last comments on this topic.

Don't forget these evil tax dodging corporates have many ordinary Australians as shareholders. Big deal you say I don't own any shares.

But there is an extremely high possibility that you do indirectly through your superannuation Your super fund invests in a range of  investments and shares form a very significant portion of most portfolios. Thus your financial return on your super would affect your retirement lifestyles. If the evil corporates are taxed out of the ball park or go broke your superannuation gets screwed.

But if your morals outweigh your desire to invest with these corporates , ring up your super fund tell them to move your investment away from the evil corporates and they will move you to a say " Cash Option". Terrible returns but hey.......

 

 

 

I find it odd that you actively cheer on those that rip you off 

Government takes your tax $s gives it to their mates yacht club to win votes, and you make multiple posts saying it’s a good thing 

Large corporates and the wealthy dodge paying their share of tax, on putting the load on Middle income PAYE earners and again not only do you defend them but you cheer them on like a teenage girl at a one direction concert 

 

Edited by StringerBellend

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On 05/02/2020 at 11:26 AM, theseeker said:

It's always the ABC or the Guardian who are quoted , funny that.

Cry ? Closet Socialist ?

Newsflash , Socialism / Communism died and was buried in 1991 , remember Mr. Gorbachev and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Some are trying to resurrect the dead body such as the Watermelon Greens and a few other desperate groups you see at random demos. Carrying photos of Marx , Lenin , Trotsky and Che Guevara.

Some of those guys had good intentions in the beginning but it could never work and didn't. Check 1991 news. 

You need to google the difference between socialism and communism.

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On 05/02/2020 at 7:27 AM, theseeker said:

Nice piece of deflection on what we are talking about. So now your a tax expert. Tax them to the hilt , and when they go broke or move their operations to lower tax countries all the people they employ , who pay tax, won't have a job and will get the dole. Nice one. 

 

Didn't that teacher in Ferris Bueller's Day Off teach you anything about trickle down voodoo economics?

Anyway, if companies want to move somewhere for cheaper costs they can already go to Asia if their business model allows it. Taxing companies is not going to send them running.

When the ATO was investigating BHP and Rio Tinto for tax evasion they didn't pick up their mining equipment and move to a highrise in Shanghai did they? Pretty hard to move a business to the country that is buying your products solely because they don't produce it.  Also you might catch a virus.

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

National anthem will not be played at NRL All Stars game after players voice concerns
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-06/arlc-scraps-national-anthem-for-all-stars/11941234

 

Good move.

 

usually not a fan of not doing something because it might offend someone but i never been a fan of the anthem even when its not offending people :P at the end of the day if a bunch of drunk bogan's want to listen to the national anthem there is always youtube after the match

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A worthy cause yes.

The this was done is blatant pork-barreling at its worst.

Coalition quietly spent another $150m sports grant fund during election campaign https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/07/coalition-quietly-spent-another-150m-sports-grant-fund-during-election-campaign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

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3 hours ago, btron3000 said:

We should become a republic, change the flag, change the anthem (at least some words), and change the date. There’s really no reason not to do these things.

I totally agree.

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