wendybr Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 On 14/04/2019 at 12:14 AM, hawks2767 said: People are going down the whole 'governments are evil and he's exposing their immorality' road and aren't aware that releasing documents marked 'top secret' puts lives at risk. Put lives at risk...or cost lives? That's not good....but in context...how many lives have not just been put at risk...but lost... through the implementation of decades of US foreign policy? Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 Guess you can't or won't elaborate? Link to comment
btron3000 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 On 14/04/2019 at 12:14 AM, hawks2767 said: I have a security clearance. I'm aware of the damage he caused. People are going down the whole 'governments are evil and he's exposing their immorality' road and aren't aware that releasing documents marked 'top secret' puts lives at risk. Are you a spy? sonar and wendybr 2 Link to comment
hawks2767 Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 If I was, i'd be using Government assets to find out who WSW are signing next season. SomeGuy1977, Cynth, sonar and 2 others 5 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Firstly, I'm not a fan of Julian Assange, secondly, WikiLeaks aside, Julian Assange should front up to court for the **** charges to prove his innocence or guilt. If he is guilty he should face the consequences of his actions. **** is a serious crime. Thirdly,Leaking govt security documents it can be debated whether it's good or bad depending on your point of view. There are reports he actively engaged with Manning to crack the passwords of areas Manning had no right to go into. That is spying not reporting. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/04/12/julian-assange-can-expect-the-full-5-years-in-american-jail--heres-why/#6bdf09c75a43 Instead, he's accused of helping Chelsea Manning with password cracking tools and techniques. Specifically, the U.S. alleged that Assange spoke with Manning over the encrypted chat service Jabber, providing advice on how to crack passwords to access the Secret Internet Protocol Network. That's where classified Department of Defense files were stored. Assange is accused of encouraging Manning to provide such documents. Manning, a former intelligence analyst, served seven years in jail for leaking sensitive diplomatic cables and military reports relating to U.S. operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay detainees. Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 hour ago, sonar said: Firstly, I'm not a fan of Julian Assange, secondly, WikiLeaks aside, Julian Assange should front up to court for the **** charges to prove his innocence or guilt. If he is guilty he should face the consequences of his actions. **** is a serious crime. Thirdly,Leaking govt security documents it can be debated whether it's good or bad depending on your point of view. There are reports he actively engaged with Manning to crack the passwords of areas Manning had no right to go into. That is spying not reporting. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/04/12/julian-assange-can-expect-the-full-5-years-in-american-jail--heres-why/#6bdf09c75a43 Instead, he's accused of helping Chelsea Manning with password cracking tools and techniques. Specifically, the U.S. alleged that Assange spoke with Manning over the encrypted chat service Jabber, providing advice on how to crack passwords to access the Secret Internet Protocol Network. That's where classified Department of Defense files were stored. Assange is accused of encouraging Manning to provide such documents. Manning, a former intelligence analyst, served seven years in jail for leaking sensitive diplomatic cables and military reports relating to U.S. operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay detainees. Wow .... you actually believe that ... you seriously think those charges have nothing to do with what he published... Arguably a key foundation stone of western democracy is a free press and over the years, things like Watergate, The Pentagon Papers etc have held the feet of those in power to the blow touch... Sir Keith Murdoch, father of Rupert articles during the first world war where he exposed the failing of the British generals,. All of these very brave journalist won major awards, Arguments that Wiki Leaks is media company and Julian is not a journalist are beyond silly of course they are... What I find scary is the how skilful the defence organisations and government power brokers are at framing the context of the argument ... look no further than Wilson's argument about the RBB as a minor example. Do you seriously believe hand on heart not the other thing that the charges have nothing to do with the fact he has annoyed both sides of politics in Washington and shown the US people what they sometimes do overseas. It actually scares me that we sit back and say the US has the power to F.....ing jail a journalist and stop a media company in another country because it does not like being exposed.... Where are the voices of outrage that sprang up over the rugby player and his post... The day we don't defend press freedom is the day we are in deep deep deep S...T ... and the day we allow those in power to tell us what is a media company and who is a journalist we have lost our freedom.. wendybr 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Midfielder said: Wow .... you actually believe that ... you seriously think those charges have nothing to do with what he published... Arguably a key foundation stone of western democracy is a free press and over the years, things like Watergate, The Pentagon Papers etc have held the feet of those in power to the blow touch... Sir Keith Murdoch, father of Rupert articles during the first world war where he exposed the failing of the British generals,. All of these very brave journalist won major awards, Arguments that Wiki Leaks is media company and Julian is not a journalist are beyond silly of course they are... What I find scary is the how skilful the defence organisations and government power brokers are at framing the context of the argument ... look no further than Wilson's argument about the RBB as a minor example. Do you seriously believe hand on heart not the other thing that the charges have nothing to do with the fact he has annoyed both sides of politics in Washington and shown the US people what they sometimes do overseas. It actually scares me that we sit back and say the US has the power to F.....ing jail a journalist and stop a media company in another country because it does not like being exposed.... Where are the voices of outrage that sprang up over the rugby player and his post... The day we don't defend press freedom is the day we are in deep deep deep S...T ... and the day we allow those in power to tell us what is a media company and who is a journalist we have lost our freedom.. As I said.....the rights or wrongs of WkliLeaks can be debated ad nausium. He encouraged the hacking of the US...he is not a disinterested party. .........the **** allegation is another thing all together. My neice had to go through hell in court to prove her sexual assualt was not consensual. Have you actually read about the women who allege the **** or do you dismiss what they say out of hand.....You can try to say with Assange case it's linked but I for one don't believe it....just a convenient cover for him to get away with it....and be not be tagged as a sexual predator. Edited April 15, 2019 by sonar Link to comment
Cynth Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 The press in the US are free. There are plenty of journalists that have pissed off both sides of politics and yet they are not arrested. Journalists break stories all the time, on a daily basis that are damaging to governments and politicians and plenty of other people. And yet they are not targeted for arrest. Why? What's different about Assange? For example, there was a lot of work and exposure around the war machine that drove the Iraq war, about who made money and what the real motives were.......there was real journalism around Jeffrey Epstein, who has political allies on both sides and his sexual trafficking....these journalists weren't targeted.....there were document leaks left right and centre around the Mueller stuff....no-one is arresting journalists....why? And of course there are large scale exposures like mentioned, Watergate etc... It can't be because they don't like being exposed, it can't be because they want to stifle press freedom. This case is unique, Wikileaks is unique and there are good reasons to investigate their methods and the claim to "journalism" they have. I for one, don't think Assange acted within the scope of journalism. sonar 1 Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Quite a good opinion piece... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/padraigreidy/wikileaks-assange-leaks-charge sonar and Cynth 2 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 30 minutes ago, wendybr said: Quite a good opinion piece... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/padraigreidy/wikileaks-assange-leaks-charge He ( the reporter ) lands where I do about the **** allegations.....face the music. He also makes the claim....rightly I believe.....that Assange has never tried to hack the Russians or Chinese govts.........why? Cynth 1 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 31 minutes ago, wendybr said: Quite a good opinion piece... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/padraigreidy/wikileaks-assange-leaks-charge Good pick up Wen... people seem to be getting confused and judgements seem to be based on whether he is an arsehole or a hero... it does not matter either way... The only reason he is being charges is because of what wiki leaks published and he did not more or no less than thousands of journalist over time... FFS News in the UK hacked peoples phones ... On the **** thing, he should stand trail... no question... but not in a country that will sent him to the US ... Cythn you wrote there are good reasons to investigate wiki leaks methods... seriously ... in the history of the free press a day maybe an hour would not go past when a reporter / journalist after a story would help the information giver provide the information..... that wiki leaks is somehow different is a complete rouse ... this is a huge attack on freedom of the press... Just imagine this an insider in lets say New Zealand finds some information about what the US plan to do in Australia... but its on the net.... so an Australian journalist helps the NZ insider get the information and publishes it .... you are then giving the US courts the power to charge both the NZer and Australian ... The story being fed by those in power is to a play book ... and the left is so caught up in personality politics so much so that it can't defend at times what are real lift issues ... wendybr 1 Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 minute ago, sonar said: He ( the reporter ) lands where I do about the **** allegations.....face the music. I have no argument with him facing charges - if they aren't merely a way for the US govt to get their hands on him. Quote He also makes the claim....rightly I believe.....that Assange has never tried to hack the Russians or Chinese govts.........why? Why would he want to? What purpose would it serve? It's not as if a public awareness campaign against the repressive practices of either of those governments would make any difference - either in the West - or over there (not that they'd get wide exposure somewhere like China anyway). The US presents itself as a global moral crusader - and it's the height of hypocrisy to do so. I see no point in Wikileaks rooting out dodgy practices in Russia or China - leave that to their hackers - lol! And see how far it gets. Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, sonar said: He ( the reporter ) lands where I do about the **** allegations.....face the music. He also makes the claim....rightly I believe.....that Assange has never tried to hack the Russians or Chinese govts.........why? Why and what for.... what has he done that the NEW York Times in the Pentagon Papers and the Washington Post did in Watergrate did not do... Also what Sir Keith Murdoch did in the first world war .. I would love to know the difference Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Midfielder said: Why and what for.... what has he done that the NEW York Times in the Pentagon Papers and the Washington Post did in Watergrate did not do... Also what Sir Keith Murdoch did in the first world war .. I would love to know the difference Yes. Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 hour ago, sonar said: He encouraged the hacking of the US...he is not a disinterested party. ... O please as I posted above you could charge close to every journalist that's ever lived worth their salt with encouraging their sources to get inside information... wendybr 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 minute ago, wendybr said: I have no argument with him facing charges - if they aren't merely a way for the US govt to get their hands on him. Why would he want to? What purpose would it serve? It's not as if a public awareness campaign against the repressive practices of either of those governments would make any difference - either in the West - or over there (not that they'd get wide exposure somewhere like China anyway). The US presents itself as a global moral crusader - and it's the height of hypocrisy to do so. I see no point in Wikileaks rooting out dodgy practices in Russia or China - leave that to their hackers - lol! And see how far it gets. I don't disagree with you about the US seeing itself as a moral crusader but If your aim is to discredit govts or it's wrong doing then why chose only western govts.,...?........Far right or repressive regimes should be exposed as well. There are people from repressive regimes who get information about what is happening inside those regimes to unaware citizens........North Korea is one example.....where information from defectors in the south broadcast back. Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 Wiki Leaks is different how... The Pentagon Papers, officially titled Report of the Office of the Secretary of Defense Vietnam Task Force, is a United States Department of Defense history of the United States' political and military involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to 1967. The papers were released by Daniel Ellsberg, who had worked on the study; they were first brought to the attention of the public on the front page of The New York Times in 1971.[1][2] A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration"systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress".[3] More specifically, the papers revealed that the U.S. had secretly enlarged the scope of its actions in the Vietnam War with the bombings of nearby Cambodia and Laos, coastal raids on North Vietnam, and Marine Corps attacks, none of which were reported in the mainstream media.[4] Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 15 hours ago, Midfielder said: Just caught up with this clip .... and I respect Chris Hedges - from what I've seen of him. I guess he presents a worst case scenario - but I wouldn't really doubt that the US is capable of exactly this. Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Midfielder said: Why and what for.... what has he done that the NEW York Times in the Pentagon Papers and the Washington Post did in Watergrate did not do... Also what Sir Keith Murdoch did in the first world war .. I would love to know the difference Interesting you don;t have anything to say on the **** allegations...... Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 minute ago, sonar said: I don't disagree with you about the US seeing itself as a moral crusader but If your aim is to discredit govts or it's wrong doing then why chose only western govts.,...?........Far right or repressive regimes should be exposed as well. There are people from repressive regimes who get information about what is happening inside those regimes to unaware citizens........North Korea is one example.....where information from defectors in the south broadcast back. O please name one article over the last say 10 years that in any praises North Korea ... I could link 100's maybe 1,000's saying how bad they are... Wiki Leaks has embarrassed both the left and the right elites in the US and they wanta shut him up... Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Midfielder said: O please as I posted above you could charge close to every journalist that's ever lived worth their salt with encouraging their sources to get inside information... When he advised Manning he had tools to help him hack into the Defence Dept that my friend is spying .......aiding and abetting. If Manning had dumped everything on to WikiLeaks and said here you are go for it....but he didn't did he. I still ask the same question....why no hacking on other Eastern or right wing govts............? Assange has an agenda. Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 minute ago, sonar said: I don't disagree with you about the US seeing itself as a moral crusader but If your aim is to discredit govts or it's wrong doing then why chose only western govts.,...?........Far right or repressive regimes should be exposed as well. There are people from repressive regimes who get information about what is happening inside those regimes to unaware citizens........North Korea is one example.....where information from defectors in the south broadcast back. But to what end? The repressions of these governments is clear - they don't pretend to be the upholders of democracy, fairness "truth, justice and the American way" blah blah blah...etc. Nothing would change by exposing the repressive brutality in some of those countries. In the West, exposing the injustice perpetrated by our governments...things may change. Our governments are accountable to the people....well sort of (so the story goes). Exposure of anything dodgy in NK, China and Russia - how would it help?? Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, sonar said: Interesting you don;t have anything to say on the **** allegations...... What allegations... on the **** charge I have said he should face court .... but not in a country he is sent to the US from ... So let me take you step by step with the allegation... Now before we start have you read what the closed doc says ... not the press release as the closed court doc does not mention hacking... But lets assume the line put out about hacking is whats in the closed court doc which it is not ... but to argue you point. Any journalist who encourages any person to get hold of inside information about their employer can be jailed and so can the journalist ... that is the outcome.... is that seriously what you want. Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, sonar said: Interesting you don;t have anything to say on the **** allegations...… Hey Maaaaack! Is it really necessary to maintain the prohibition on the r.ape word? Can't recall why it happened - but whatever it was....is it still necessary? Cynth 1 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, sonar said: When he advised Manning he had tools to help him hack into the Defence Dept that my friend is spying .......aiding and abetting. If Manning had dumped everything on to WikiLeaks and said here you are go for it....but he didn't did he. I still ask the same question....why no hacking on other Eastern or right wing govts............? Assange has an agenda. WTF maybe no one in Russia had the balls to contact him... and whats that got to do with it... he can only publish and help those that approach him ... so you are saying because he has not done a dump on Russia and has done a dump on the US he should be jailed .... It's F..........ing Trump who keeps on saying how great Russia is wendybr 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Midfielder said: O please name one article over the last say 10 years that in any praises North Korea ... I could link 100's maybe 1,000's saying how bad they are... Wiki Leaks has embarrassed both the left and the right elites in the US and they wanta shut him up... Your missing the point. I NEVER PRAISED NORTH KOREA.....what i wrote was......... There are people from repressive regimes who get information about what is happening inside those regimes to unaware citizens........North Korea is one example.....where information from defectors in the south broadcast back. .....thereby wendys point about there being no reason to hack those govt moot. The same can be done with Russia and China. Try and keep up. Link to comment
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