Midfielder Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, sonar said: Sorry mate where I disagree with you is that I can't go past his not wanting to face the **** allegations...says more about his character than anything else. Anyway me debating it here will have diddly squat on what happens. So I'll leave it at that. So your entire argument is he did not go after enough countries... and he hacked the information himself or Wikileaks did.. also if he is an arsehole as you believe why should that be a reason to stop a free press. OK OK OK ... maybe if I type this slowly you will read it slowly and understand at least this part. Wikileaks... DID NOT HACK.... PEOPLE CAME to Wikileaks with info ... Your argument seems to revolve around Wikileaks only hacked western countries. Wikileaks did not hack he was given the information. Secondly he has released information on released stuff on India and many South Amercian countries ... but from information given to him. Also the US court case is NOT repeat NOT please understand is NOT about hacking its a clever ruse by putting in a press release This is worth watching in time he explains what is in teh US court docs.... and its NOT hacking ... and he explains what Wikileaks is i.e. a publisher. Edited April 15, 2019 by Midfielder Link to comment
btron3000 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 6 hours ago, sonar said: Sorry mate where I disagree with you is that I can't go past his not wanting to face the **** allegations...says more about his character than anything else. Anyway me debating it here will have diddly squat on what happens. So I'll leave it at that. I'm not arguing "for" his character, and I'm not defending (or attacking) the **** allegations. His character is not the issue when it comes to wikileaks. He can't be prosecuted for his character. That Honest Gov ad above says it all - are we (as a people) being sidelined into focusing on his character instead of whether he actually committed a crime? I'm also not arguing about whether or not he should stand trial/be found guilty for wikileaks. My natural inclination is to be anti-authority and to be glad he was exposing the government/system, but I know that I don't know enough about the particulars to comment. What I do know is that the issue is very subjective. It's not like proving murder with forensic evidence. It's a debate about how far people should be allowed to go to expose the government versus the right for a government to have confidential information and the trust we have in them to do the right thing with that information. Everyone is going to have different values regarding this. That's why his fate is such a political issue. Regarding trusting the US government, I'd ask "what have they done to earn that trust"? Here is a regime that refuses to let us know what happened to their own President (Kennedy) 50 something years ago, and have a history of entering conflicts for dubious reasons, and behaving dubiously when in those conflicts, why would we trust them to tell the truth about other things? Here's an interesting perspective which also questions our own government's shady dealings: https://www.globalresearch.ca/assange-arrest-warning-history/5674239? wendybr 1 Link to comment
Wobblies Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 13 hours ago, Midfielder said: They have not hacked people come to them with information... and what would it matter anyway.... please understand he never hacked the US and not Russia... an insider from the US approached him ... This. Wikileaks is /was a Postbox so to speak for "whistleblowers" to lodge info on dodgy Government practices. From what I understand is that Assange did not know who the specific individuals who lodged were / are. wendybr 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Midfielder said: So your entire argument is he did not go after enough countries... and he hacked the information himself or Wikileaks did.. also if he is an arsehole as you believe why should that be a reason to stop a free press. OK OK OK ... maybe if I type this slowly you will read it slowly and understand at least this part. Wikileaks... DID NOT HACK.... PEOPLE CAME to Wikileaks with info ... Your argument seems to revolve around Wikileaks only hacked western countries. Wikileaks did not hack he was given the information. Secondly he has released information on released stuff on India and many South Amercian countries ... but from information given to him. Also the US court case is NOT repeat NOT please understand is NOT about hacking its a clever ruse by putting in a press release This is worth watching in time he explains what is in teh US court docs.... and its NOT hacking ... and he explains what Wikileaks is i.e. a publisher. Firstly......calm down.....have a cup of whatever.......and relax........ I've criticised Assange and WikiLeaks but never a free press and there is a big difference in the two. Secondly ........I have never said anything about limiting the free press....never ever. I will gladly wait while you bring up posts where I have specifically called for that...........because Midi , I can assure you I never have. Have I called for WikiLeaks to be shut down ? Have I called for any press to be shut down........NO I havent. I only criticised them . Thirdly ....I have read the indicment.......Here's a copy for you........and please note item No.9....."The portion of the password Manning gave Assang to crack"............so he doesn;t hack....?........lol https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5816934-Assange-Indictment.html Edited April 15, 2019 by sonar Cynth 1 Link to comment
wendybr Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Zip and Micki from the past....yes...they generated plenty of tension. Midi and Sonar? Well...I never would have predicted it! Mack will be on the prowl if you too get too sonar and Cynth 1 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, wendybr said: Zip and Micki from the past....yes...they generated plenty of tension. Midi and Sonar? Well...I never would have predicted it! Mack will be on the prowl if you too get too wendy it's all good as far as I am concerned... .I have an opinion and Midi has his......I'm not a fan of Assange but that does not mean I am against freedom of the press. There is a difference. ..... I think the same about Assange as I do about Piers Ackerman....terrible human beings but I have never asked that he or News limited be shutdown Edited April 15, 2019 by sonar wendybr and Cynth 1 1 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, sonar said: Firstly......calm down.....have a cup of whatever.......and relax........ I've criticised Assange and WikiLeaks but never a free press and there is a big difference in the two. Secondly ........I have never said anything about limiting the free press....never ever. I will gladly wait while you bring up posts where I have specifically called for that...........because Midi , I can assure you I never have. Have I called for WikiLeaks to be shut down ? Have I called for any press to be shut down........NO I havent. I only criticised them . Thirdly ....I have read the indicment.......Here's a copy for you........and please note item No.9....."The portion of the password Manning gave Assang to crack"............so he doesn;t hack....?........lol https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5816934-Assange-Indictment.html sonar I am not mad at you but I am mad at the process that has you thinking the way you do.... its the same media types who have convinced half of Australia to not believe in what scientists say, who belittle any academic statement that does not suit them. You said "" I have never said anything about limiting the free press....never ever."" what effect other than having a huge effect on a free press is jailing Julian. ""Have I called for WikiLeaks to be shut down ? Have I called for any press to be shut down........NO I havent. I only criticised them .""" I accept that however your criticism has been about hacking and not hacking other countries, what I have tried to explain is they don't hack, people come to them and they have released heaps about other countries as well... it just not get the same coverage in the main stream press as has the US dumps. "The portion of the password Manning gave Assang to crack"... Barvo this actually makes me so so so so so so so so so so sad in the ways its been framed by those who want to punish nay silence him. I doubt in the history of a free press with insiders providing information to journalist that the journalist does not try and help the provider if they can. How do I use a fax, how do I use drop box, my guess is world wide every minute of every day a journalist helps their source. Finally on this aspect i.e. they broke a law in getting the information then close down the New York Times and Washington Post because in "The Pentagon Papers" & Watergate they broke the law.... yet we protected both the journalist involved and the institutions they work for. The framing of this by those in power is to convince people this charge is not about a free press and is about computer hacking is impressive and in overdrive.... anyone who believes that has been taken for a ride. wendybr 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Midfielder said: sonar I am not mad at you but I am mad at the process that has you thinking the way you do.... its the same media types who have convinced half of Australia to not believe in what scientists say, who belittle any academic statement that does not suit them. You said "" I have never said anything about limiting the free press....never ever."" what effect other than having a huge effect on a free press is jailing Julian. ""Have I called for WikiLeaks to be shut down ? Have I called for any press to be shut down........NO I havent. I only criticised them .""" I accept that however your criticism has been about hacking and not hacking other countries, what I have tried to explain is they don't hack, people come to them and they have released heaps about other countries as well... it just not get the same coverage in the main stream press as has the US dumps. "The portion of the password Manning gave Assang to crack"... Barvo this actually makes me so so so so so so so so so so sad in the ways its been framed by those who want to punish nay silence him. I doubt in the history of a free press with insiders providing information to journalist that the journalist does not try and help the provider if they can. How do I use a fax, how do I use drop box, my guess is world wide every minute of every day a journalist helps their source. Finally on this aspect i.e. they broke a law in getting the information then close down the New York Times and Washington Post because in "The Pentagon Papers" & Watergate they broke the law.... yet we protected both the journalist involved and the institutions they work for. The framing of this by those in power is to convince people this charge is not about a free press and is about computer hacking is impressive and in overdrive.... anyone who believes that has been taken for a ride. Midi....I am old enough and smart enough ( I think lol ) to be able disceminate information. I haven't drunk the "Kool Aid" of the media but arrived at my opinion on my own. I don't think he or WikiLeaks are the be all and end all of investigative journalism. So please, stop equating my criticisms of Assange or WikiLeaks with wanting a media muzzled as that is blantantly not true or implying I can't see through the bullshit and have been conned. It is not correct. This thread is about Julian Assange. In my opinion Assange has his own political agenda and like many other organisations he runs with it. As Cyth pointed out in her post other journos have ratted on govts and not gone to jail. I could go on a rant about Murdoch,his organisation and his stable of reporters or news outlets.... How about News of the World and phone hacking.....? ." How about the rantings of Bolt.....Devine.....Ackerman....etc and who they report on and the methods they use and the people they target and the messaging they give out....? I am NOT a fan of his media but that would only be criticisms and not a call to shut them down. How about Murdoch himself. ? As head of News Ltd he should of been held responsible for the phone hacking in the UK. WhY.? Because the only thing of public interest in those stories was him and how much money he could make through an illegal operation. Can we get into an argument about Kochie and Sunrise about all the free advertising they give Hanson and the opportunities given for her to sprout the racist crap she does...? I can criticise Sunrise and it's presenters but I would never call for them to be shutdown......I'm old enough to remember the ABC doing their investigation of the Qld police corruption which bought down the Bijelkie-Peterson govt. If you want Assange as your pin up for the free press then that is your perogative and I have no problem with that but I don't see him in that light and that is where we differ. Cynth 1 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 Sonar Nay this thread is about the jailing of Julian Assange... and he is not my poster boy . This is about a media company that has embarrassed both side of politics in the US and they want to shut him down. and sent a message to everyone in the world . IMO this is the biggest attack on freedom of the press in my lifetime and it has nothing to do with Assange's character, its about press freedoms. teddies, wendybr and sonar 3 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 "The British public know there is something wrong here when the whistleblower is in jail while the perpetrators are on TV" says former MP George Galloway who talks to In Question's Manila Chan as many in mainstream media stay mum on press freedom in Julian Assange case. Jeremy Corbyn opposes Julian Assange extradition to the US ... good stuff.. wendybr 1 Link to comment
Cynth Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 There Is a lot of talk that Julian Assange didn’t hack anything but just had information, hacked by others, given to him. I find this hard to believe since he was an expert hacker himself when he was younger. Also I think the current US charge indicates they think he “conspired” to hack with Chelsea Manning. Also, from what I read, the 1 US charge that exists for JA is just to get him extradited. The plan is to hit him with many other charges once he is in the US. sonar and Midfielder 2 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted May 1, 2019 Author Share Posted May 1, 2019 What a joke jailed for 12 months by the UK judge... This is beyond scary stuff ... Link to comment
wendybr Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 Fighting off the US extradition request will possibly be worse. That battle starts tomorrow according to his lawyer. Link to comment
Legionista Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Assange pissed off the wrong people and now he’s pay. Freedom of press arguments are extremely tricky. No news organisation would dump the slabs of highly classified documents for fear of persecution. Many news organisation sit on stories because they are asked to keep things quiet on national security grounds. Cynth, Carns and wendybr 3 Link to comment
hawks2767 Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 Yep you don't want to take chances there. I know 2 people who were hauled over the coals in 2013 speaking about something that happened in 1987. wendybr 1 Link to comment
wendybr Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/assange-suffering-psychological-torture-un-expert/ar-AACc9Hz?li=AAgfLCP Link to comment
Midfielder Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 Those that argued that Julian should be jailed... now the ABC has been raided and a journalist at News and a radio broadcaster looks in trouble... When people like me said press freedom is important ... I am amazed at the lack of public comment ... do we really want to accept our leading news organisations can't report what the government does not want reported... Link to comment
sonar Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 Julian Assange is NOT a journalist. Peter Greste, who was imprisioned in Egypt has written a good article about this... ............To be clear, Julian Assange is not a journalist, and WikiLeaks is not a news organisation. There is an argument to be had about the libertarian ideal of radical transparency that underpins its ethos, but that is a separate issue altogether from press freedom........ https://www.smh.com.au/national/assange-is-no-journalist-don-t-confuse-his-arrest-with-press-freedom-20190412-p51di1.html But Assange went further. Instead of sorting through the hundreds of thousands of files to seek out the most important or relevant and protect the innocent, he dumped them all onto his website, free for anybody to go through, regardless of their contents or the impact they might have had. Some exposed the names of Afghans who had been giving information on the Taliban to US forces. I wonder how many innocent Afghans who gave information to Aus and US forces have died because of Assange/s actions....?......he gets to live while those he imperiled...? EmMac and theguyyouwishyouwere 2 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 Sonar There is an old Irish joke about joke about Mick writing to his family back home and he starts by saying I will write this slowly because I know you can't read very fast. In this vain let me type this slowly and I hope you read it and understand what I am saying. Wikileaks published a lot of data, which has been re-published by almost every news organisation in the world.... The information was given to wikileaks by an inside source... this happens almost everyday in most news organisations.... The insdider informer if what we know is true was having trouble in getting the information... Wikileaks via Julian assisted the insider with how to get the information... again this happens daily in other News organisations. The entire argument seems to be based on Wikileaks is not a publisher and that Julian did not follow how a journalist is suppose to write there article... Today using the same arguments the Australian government... has an ATO official being charged for exposing what the ATO where doing even through what they were doing was wrong admitted by the ATO, A news limited journalist has had her house raided and appears to be in trouble and the ABC offices have been raided,... and a radio broadcaster is being investigated.. Governments and the media who support them claim all sorts of evils being carried out by the messager ... I find this very very very very very very very very scary.... But I gotta give credit where credit is due and like the Climate Change Debate ... just shout and scream at how bad things are and create fear and point out that people need to be afraid and it works... so lets lock up all those who expose the powerful... As an aside their are tobacco companies in developing countries saying smoking is good for you... the power of deeply invested groups especially governments is growing and locking up people like Julian and raiding the ABC shows how far its gone unchallenged .. I fear the voices of reason and logic are being shouted down, by people in power screaming very loudly and making people afraid of what could happen.... when in fact the screaming and shouting is being done to run cover for what has happened. Link to comment
LeeMarvin Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Midfielder said: now the ABC has been raided and a journalist at News and a radio broadcaster looks in trouble... Yeah, I am pretty concerned about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the AFP currently within the portfolio of the good friend of this forum Peter Dutton? If so, there seems to be some disturbing patterns of behaviour developing around the way this guy operates. theguyyouwishyouwere, EmMac and wendybr 3 Link to comment
LeeMarvin Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 58 minutes ago, Midfielder said: I fear the voices of reason and logic are being shouted down, by people in power screaming very loudly and making people afraid of what could happen.... when in fact the screaming and shouting is being done to run cover for what has happened. To be honest though, it seems to me that this is the way people on all sides of any given debate behave these days globally. It is pretty disheartening. wendybr 1 Link to comment
sonar Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Midfielder said: Sonar There is an old Irish joke about joke about Mick writing to his family back home and he starts by saying I will write this slowly because I know you can't read very fast. In this vain let me type this slowly and I hope you read it and understand what I am saying. Wikileaks published a lot of data, which has been re-published by almost every news organisation in the world.... The information was given to wikileaks by an inside source... this happens almost everyday in most news organisations.... The insdider informer if what we know is true was having trouble in getting the information... Wikileaks via Julian assisted the insider with how to get the information... again this happens daily in other News organisations. The entire argument seems to be based on Wikileaks is not a publisher and that Julian did not follow how a journalist is suppose to write there article... Today using the same arguments the Australian government... has an ATO official being charged for exposing what the ATO where doing even through what they were doing was wrong admitted by the ATO, A news limited journalist has had her house raided and appears to be in trouble and the ABC offices have been raided,... and a radio broadcaster is being investigated.. Governments and the media who support them claim all sorts of evils being carried out by the messager ... I find this very very very very very very very very scary.... But I gotta give credit where credit is due and like the Climate Change Debate ... just shout and scream at how bad things are and create fear and point out that people need to be afraid and it works... so lets lock up all those who expose the powerful... As an aside their are tobacco companies in developing countries saying smoking is good for you... the power of deeply invested groups especially governments is growing and locking up people like Julian and raiding the ABC shows how far its gone unchallenged .. I fear the voices of reason and logic are being shouted down, by people in power screaming very loudly and making people afraid of what could happen.... when in fact the screaming and shouting is being done to run cover for what has happened. Midifielder, As this thread is about Julian Assange, I have to state once again that he is NOT a journalist. Has no professional journalistsic qualifications and did not or has not worked for any organisations that include journalism like a newspaper,publication or broadcast media. I could wait while you produce his qualifications and the courses he did to get those qualifications but as he has never done any I may be waiting for eternity. You seem to have trouble differentiating between your dislike of people who disagree with you about Julian Assange and what TRUE journalism really is. So... I can only say what I said after the election....eff off and go over to thepolitics thread and compalin to the people who elected Dutton and his party. I did not....I did not vote for us to have a semi -facist regime. There are people on this forum who did. I suggest you try your witt and charm on them........... and see how far you get...... Edited June 5, 2019 by sonar Midfielder 1 Link to comment
Wobblies Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Midfielder said: There is an old Irish joke about joke about Mick writing to his family back home and he starts by saying I will write this slowly because I know you can't read very fast And jokes as such tend to be told by bigoted and ignorant F/wits. sonar 1 Link to comment
hawks2767 Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 3 hours ago, LeeMarvin said: Yeah, I am pretty concerned about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the AFP currently within the portfolio of the good friend of this forum Peter Dutton? If so, there seems to be some disturbing patterns of behaviour developing around the way this guy operates. The AFP investigate any leak like this one. They interviewed me for 4 hours once when I found someone leaking documents. Link to comment
Zelinsky Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 in 1974 two journos brought down an American president for wire tapping one phone. In 2019 journos and citizens alike can go to jail if they point out that American presidents are wire tapping everyone and everything. TheCroar and EmMac 2 Link to comment
Midfielder Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, sonar said: Midifielder, As this thread is about Julian Assange, I have to state once again that he is NOT a journalist. Has no professional journalistsic qualifications and did not or has not worked for any organisations that include journalism like a newspaper,publication or broadcast media. I could wait while you produce his qualifications and the courses he did to get those qualifications but as he has never done any I may be waiting for eternity. You seem to have trouble differentiating between your dislike of people who disagree with you about Julian Assange and what TRUE journalism really is. So... I can only say what I said after the election....eff off and go over to thepolitics thread and compalin to the people who elected Dutton and his party. I did not....I did not vote for us to have a semi -facist regime. There are people on this forum who did. I suggest you try your witt and charm on them........... and see how far you get...... Mate, chill, we have discussed this before this thread is not about the character of Julian... opinion is divided on whether he is a journalist or not, my take is its about 75 to 25 with 75% of journalist saying he is... but he did not publish as a journalist he released doc's via a publishing / media company ... called Wikileaks... so when another media company does the same we can jail people involved... The bigger picture is we can jail the head of the ABC if this keeps going. I have no idea how Dutton got into the conversation as to the best of my knowledge no one in the Libs phoned the Feds and said go arrest people... As for charming those who voted for the Libs ... why ... Labour lost the election, it was a beyond poor campaign they ran and thats why they lost ... I voted labour on climate change alone... Are you not the least bid concerned the ABC has been raided with huge power given to the Feds to delete and alter ABC docs .... a senior and well respected News journalist [ yes they do have some] has her house turned over and is facing arrest... Ben Fordham from Ch 9 and 2GB is the subject of an investigation ... a former employee of the ATO is facing 99 years in jail for releasing some ATO internal procedures ... like for F sake he did not give out details or tax file numbers ... he simply said what an internal ATO policy was. Whether Julian is the worst character on the plant or not it was his media company who published stuff and as a media company they are no different to the ABC, Fairfax, SBS, Ch 7 etc... If Julian is jailed for what his media company published then it opens up any media company and its officers to being jailed for what the government does not want you to hear... a corner stone of our democracy is press freedom... finally whether he is classified as a journalist or not is not the issue it whether his media company can publish and its being framed around his journalist credentials and he is of poor character... Edited June 5, 2019 by Midfielder Link to comment
sonar Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, Midfielder said: I actually feel sorry for you .... are you not the least bid concerned the ABC has been raided with huge power given to the Feds to delete and alter ABC docs .... a senior and well respected News journalist [ yes they do have some] has her house turned over and is facing arrest... Ben Fordham from Ch 9 and 2GB is the subject of an investigation ... a former employee of the ATO is facing 99 years in jail for releasing some ATO internal procedures ... like for F sake he did not give out details or tax file numbers ... he simply said what an internal ATO policy was. Firstly, my post was about Julian Assange....not freedom of the press nor the current raids. Secondly, Dutton as Home Affairs minister was the one who bought the laws into being that's why I mentioned him. Thirdly, you need to stop assuming I do not care and you have to stop making up **** I have never said. Just because I have not gone into a step by step post denegrating the parliament for the laws it has passed does not mean I agree with them .If you want to snark away I'll happily fire back. As to the raids.....I could be a smart @rse and say perhaps I'll give the AFP a ring on your behalf and tell them to stop.....I'm sure they'll listen. The only power I really have is at the ballot box. I made my decision on the 18th May. The people of this country voted for the same to continue. They voted for the laws to remain.These are the people you need to convince....NOT ME. Carns 1 Link to comment
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