Armageddon Thread

[wendybr]

7 minutes ago, mack said:

They didn't win the Nobel Prize for it treating Coronavirus did they.

 

No they did not.

Nor did they win a Nobel Prize for creating "Bovine Medicine".  

Where's the credibility in a Guardian article stating that it is a bovine medicine?

The agenda is obvious.

[mack]

What does the Guardian have to do with those two items?

It's possible they were using that in the context of the current wave of idiots buying agricultural/veterinarian versions of the drug because they aren't able to buy the prescribed versions from a pharmacist because they can't get a doctor to give them a prescription that isn't medically necessary.

All these special wonderdrugs that no-one can actually prove do anything but the anti-vaxxers want those instead of the vaccines which actually do help.

[sonar]

3 minutes ago, mack said:

All these special wonderdrugs that no-one can actually prove do anything but the anti-vaxxers want those instead of the vaccines which actually do help.

This is the bit that does my head in. 

[wendybr]

14 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

On the Guardian, it is a complete lack of understanding as to uses of Ivermectin in humans and and animals. It takes quite a study to find out the uses of Ivermectin. That is, unless you have worked for the Company that invented Ivermectin.

My first introduction to Stromectol was seeing a statue of a doctor and African patient in the Headquarters of said multinational pharmaceutical company (which at the time had a big veterinary section based on Ivermectin). Merck at that time donated Stromectol to sub-saharan Africa for the treatment of river blindness. The veterinary arm sold Ivermectin in the form of pastes (for equine use, drenches for bovine and ovine use, and as a pour-ons for bovine and equine use. 

As to the treatment used in India and other countries, a cheap treatment for a large population is appealing for a developing or rapidly developing countries with large populations compared to supplying sterile vaccines which cost a bundle (plus Pfizer comes at a premium)

I would've thought a journalist purporting to write with any authority on any topic might have been capable of just a little more accuracy of research...but maybe that's just me.

There's an agenda - to cover the fact that Ivermectin has any legitimacy as a potential treatment for Covid, which it must have, since it's being researched around the world, including the Oxford trial.

 

PS That sounds an intriguing experience!

PPS Hope your vaccination goes smoothly tomorrow!  

[Cynth]

52 minutes ago, wendybr said:

How are we to reconcile these two?

Serious question...

From ABC Health

Item 1   

India may be reaching 'endemicity' after emerging from second COVID-19 wave (msn.com)

"Conspiracy theories about ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine

A conspiracy theory going around at the moment is that India began treating people en masse with hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin and that was responsible for the fall in cases and deaths.

AAP fact checked the claim and found it was baseless.

"There is no evidence that new guidance on the use of ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine led to a reduction in COVID-19 cases in India," they found. 

"In fact, hydroxychloroquine was reported to be in widespread use well prior to the country's second-wave outbreak."

Experts — including the ivermectin's manufacturers — have repeatedly said there was no evidence the drugs were effective in treating COVID-19.

 

Item 2

Uttar Pradesh government says early use of Ivermectin helped to keep positivity, deaths low | Cities News,The Indian Express

And yes, I did check that The Indian Express is a real publication.

The Indian Express - Wikipedia

 

The Guardian, a few days ago called Ivermentin a "bovine medication".

Apart from anything else, Ivermectin won its inventors the Nobel Prize for medicine......and yet  these publications come up with those bits of "misinformation".

 

 

Why?

Maybe this will help? This review mentions the Uttar Pradesh story too. Amongst other things. 

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-ivermectin-5526152-Aug2021/

I think the reality is that journalists can write crap because they don’t know ****. Both the Guardian writing the Bovine stuff and the Indian publication suggesting Ivermectin was the only possible variable in Uttar Pradesh’s Covid reduction. Better to wait for the science. 

[wendybr]

41 minutes ago, mack said:

What does the Guardian have to do with those two items?

It's possible they were using that in the context of the current wave of idiots buying agricultural/veterinarian versions of the drug because they aren't able to buy the prescribed versions from a pharmacist because they can't get a doctor to give them a prescription that isn't medically necessary.

All these special wonderdrugs that no-one can actually prove do anything but the anti-vaxxers want those instead of the vaccines which actually do help.

Yes - that was the context. And I put it with the ABC Health article, because they're both sloppy at best, and promoting misinformation at worst. 

Re Ivermectin - You don't need a prescription - go do a Google search for buying Ivermectin, and you'll probably start getting text messages from India asking you how much you want.

It's available over the counter in many parts of the world - and dirt cheap.

 

PS No - I didn't respond to the texts asking how much I wanted - I was just curious. You wouldn't know what you're getting.  

[wendybr]

27 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Maybe this will help? This review mentions the Uttar Pradesh story too. Amongst other things. 

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-ivermectin-5526152-Aug2021/

I think the reality is that journalists can write crap because they don’t know ****. Both the Guardian writing the Bovine stuff and the Indian publication suggesting Ivermectin was the only possible variable in Uttar Pradesh’s Covid reduction. Better to wait for the science. 

That's balanced...and yes journalists can write ****, that's for sure.

[Cynth]

2 minutes ago, wendybr said:

That's balanced...and yes journalists can write ****, that's for sure.

I’m sure you would teach that in your classes! 

[Paul01]

31 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Re Ivermectin - You don't need a prescription - go do a Google search for buying Ivermectin, and you'll probably start getting text messages from India asking you how much you want.

It's available over the counter in many parts of the world - and dirt cheap.

For Australia, Stromectol (Ivermectin) Tablets are not available over the counter. It is scheduled as S4 in Australia which means you cannot purchase it over the counter and it must be prescribed by a doctor. Steroids such as dexamethasone are also S4 medicines in Australia.

In India, the regulatory environment for medicines is different to Australia. As far i am aware, both Ivermectin and Dexamethasone are available over the counter. In fact, the widespread use of dexamethasone in India is the most likely cause of Black Fungus in Covid-19 patients.

Once there is a full clinical study with proper controls with the benefits shown to outweigh the risks acceptable to a regulatory body in the developed world for Ivermectin, will it become acceptable.

At the moment, any option is being looked at as a prophylactic treatment option for Covid-19 

[Paul01]

And here you can get the information used in Australia for the human use of Ivermectin Tablets.

https://www.nps.org.au/medicine-finder/stromectol-blister-pack-tablets

the content of the following are regulated by the TGA.

They are Consumer Medicines Advice (AKA CMA plain English) and the Prescribing Information (AKA PI needed by the medical profession to look at how the drug is to be prescribed safely, potential interactions with other drugs and when not to use a drug as the safety of the patient may be compromised) used by doctors when prescribing Ivermectin.

For instance, Ivermectin is dangerous, in the human context, for patients with poor renal function so should not be prescribed for those patients.

[wendybr]

On 05/09/2021 at 7:30 PM, Paul01 said:

Here's the auto-engineer making sense on what we will most likely see in the the next months

He aptly discusses the fact we are living in Afgladystan and other issues relating to Covid-19

And just for Wendy, he specifically addresses the anti-vaxxer movement (with a idea that there could be natural selection about to occur )

 

Well... the "useless dipshits at the Guardian" was entertaining. He did become very entertaining and then became hard hitting re civil liberties and hospital in the home!

The last section...less impressive. 

 

Thanks Paul.

[wendybr]

59 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

For Australia, Stromectol (Ivermectin) Tablets are not available over the counter. It is scheduled as S4 in Australia which means you cannot purchase it over the counter and it must be prescribed by a doctor. Steroids such as dexamethasone are also S4 medicines in Australia.

In India, the regulatory environment for medicines is different to Australia. As far i am aware, both Ivermectin and Dexamethasone are available over the counter. In fact, the widespread use of dexamethasone in India is the most likely cause of Black Fungus in Covid-19 patients.

Once there is a full clinical study with proper controls with the benefits shown to outweigh the risks acceptable to a regulatory body in the developed world for Ivermectin, will it become acceptable.

At the moment, any option is being looked at as a prophylactic treatment option for Covid-19 

Yes to all that.

Except if it's off label, no company can manufacture it exclusively - so how would that work? Any of them could just dive in?

Dexamethasone is used in the inflammatory stage with patients who are severely ill in hospital here, I think.

I've seen it used with elderly relatives in my family - with powerful results, but the idea of it being available over the counter is bizarre. Yes - far different regulatory bodies, I can well imagine.

 

1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

At the moment, any option is being looked at as a prophylactic treatment option for Covid-19 

You mean in the clinical trials?

I could be wrong, but I thought at Oxford, they were recruiting people who were newly diagnosed?

[mack]

6 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Except if it's off label, no company can manufacture it exclusively - so how would that work? Any of them could just dive in?

Generic, not off-label. Off-label is using a drug outside it's original/approved purpose. Generic is when there's no patents or other issues preventing any company from making it.

[wendybr]

1 minute ago, mack said:

Generic, not off-label. Off-label is using a drug outside it's original/approved purpose. Generic is when there's no patents or other issues preventing any company from making it.

It might be both - if it ends up being repurposed?

Off label seems to be how it is referred to in what I've read/ heard.

But IDK.

[wendybr]

Oxford is trialling Ivermectin - the path to this point has been rocky – ASCOT: The Australasian COVID-19 Trial (ascot-trial.edu.au)

Hmmmm....

This is unimpressive.

"While PRINCIPLE will likely be the largest study to consider ivermectin (there are more than 5,000 patients enrolled in the trial so far), whatever the results it may not definitively satisfy everyone. Some of the reasons for this are related to the design of the study, which is pragmatic and will enrol people who have symptoms consistent with COVID-19, even without a test to confirm the diagnosis, and is not placebo-controlled."

The criticism of dozens of previous trials is that they are small scale, and not "Gold Standard".

Not hard to see why this will most likely be considered flawed and inconclusive as well. You'd think Oxford could come up with something closer to "Gold standard" 

But the article  does acknowledge that in the middle of a pandemic, such trials are difficult.

The ASCOT team is very aware of the challenges of developing and conducting randomised trials in pandemic conditions, but we’re committed to it because clinical trials are the best way to offer patients new therapies and generate the evidence needed to use them ethically. Hopefully the PRINCIPLE trial will provide some clear data on the real-world impact of ivermectin for this patient group, as we continue to need a range of new and well-studied treatments for better control of the COVID-19 pandemic

 

Except - that's an allowance that doesn't seem to have been extended to the dozens of trials conducted in the craziness of the pandemic last year!!

Seriously, there is inconsistency everywhere with this.

Sigh.

 

 

[wendybr]

My last - this published in the Lancet.

The effect of early treatment with ivermectin on viral load, symptoms and humoral response in patients with non-severe COVID-19: A pilot, double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial - EClinicalMedicine (thelancet.com)

The idea that it hasn't been researched is ridiculous.

This was published at the start of the year  - but had limitations.

It only gave 1 dose, for starters!

And yet it concluded that more trials were warranted by its likely positive indications.

"We conducted a Pilot, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to evaluate the efficacy of a single dose of ivermectin reduce the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 when administered early after disease onset." 

"Patients in the ivermectin group reported fewer patient-days of any symptoms than those in the placebo group (171 vs 255 patient-days). This difference is mostly driven by two symptoms, anosmia/hyposmia and cough. Patients in the ivermectin group reported 50% less anosmia/hyposmia than those in the placebo group (76 vs 158 patient-days of anosmia/hyposmia). The ivermectin group also reported 30% less cough (68 vs 97 patient-days of cough) (Fig. 3).?

 

Anyway...Smoggy is no longer around to call me manic!  

[Paul01]

6 hours ago, wendybr said:

It might be both - if it ends up being repurposed?

Off label seems to be how it is referred to in what I've read/ heard.

But IDK.

Mack is correct.

Ivermectin for human is scheduled on the SUSPM as S4. You may remember that Codeine used in a tablet/capsule was rescheduled recently. Codeine at doses less than 10 mg in conjunction with paracetamol or ibuprofen as a pain killer now requires a prescription. Codeine is now fully S4.

No Ivermectin Tablets can be purchased over-the-counter in Australia due to scheduling 

[Stokz]

The extraordinary tale of how so many clever people fell for an entirely bogus story about ivermectin and hospitals because it was tailor-made to suit their prejudices about horse paste-eating rednecks in Trump Country, USA, is ... well, extraordinary.

https://reason.com/2021/09/06/ivermectin-overdoses-oklahoma-hospitals-rolling-stone-hoax/

[wendybr]

1 hour ago, Stokz said:

The extraordinary tale of how so many clever people fell for an entirely bogus story about ivermectin and hospitals because it was tailor-made to suit their prejudices about horse paste-eating rednecks in Trump Country, USA, is ... well, extraordinary.

https://reason.com/2021/09/06/ivermectin-overdoses-oklahoma-hospitals-rolling-stone-hoax/

"This is yet another example of the mainstream media lazily circulating a narrative that flatters the worldview of the liberal audience, without bothering to check on any of the details."

 

I'm afraid I can see this everywhere.

And as I said, I haven't decided if it's incompetence and just poor journalism - or part of a wider agenda.

[Stokz]

We’re in week 11 of lockdown, with nearly 75% first dose, where is the official opening roadmap to prepare business?

What will be open at 70%, 80%, what will happen with the LGAs then? When will offices be back? What will the unvaxxed be able to do? 

Why is no asking one (journalists/opposition) for this ?

Why is it taking so long…..

[Paul01]

7 minutes ago, Stokz said:

We’re in week 11 of lockdown, with nearly 75% first dose, where is the official opening roadmap to prepare business?

What will be open at 70%, 80%, what will happen with the LGAs then? When will offices be back? What will the unvaxxed be able to do? 

Why is no asking one (journalists/opposition) for this ?

Why is it taking so long…..

2 weeks after 70% double dose vaccinations.

Plus the recovery rate increasing significantly. Only 8 recoveries reported officially in NSW in the last 7 days.

 

[sonar]

Gladys doesn't do transparency. 

[Stokz]

2 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

2 weeks after 70% double dose vaccinations.

Plus the recovery rate increasing significantly. Only 8 recoveries reported officially in NSW in the last 7 days.

 

What's 2 weeks after 70% double dose ?

I dont think that recovery number is accurate or probably updated ?

Edited September 7, 2021 by Stokz

[Stokz]

1 minute ago, sonar said:

Gladys doesn't do transparency. 

Agree - but unfortunately its not just Gladys problem.

[Paul01]

2 minutes ago, Stokz said:

What's 2 weeks after 70% double dose ?

I dont think that recovery number is accurate or probably updated ?

2 weeks after second jab is when you are effectively protected from hospitalised

[sonar]

Just now, Stokz said:

Agree - but unfortunately its not just Gladys problem.

Yep. I do get it.

We are in this state because those that are in a position of power failed to do their jobs. We were open. You could go out and about and socialise but by allowing Delta in and allowing it's spread borders on criminal.

Their failures are then piled onto the innocent citizens who just want to live a normal life and who are then being forced to make choices they'd rather not have to make. 

[Stokz]

Just now, Paul01 said:

2 weeks after second jab is when you are effectively protected from hospitalised

Yeah I get that - but shouldn't there be some public roadmap.

If I'm a business owner - I'm totally in the dark. I want to prepare my business, if its mandatory vax to open, my staff need to prepare for that etc.

And this campaign focusing on getting jabs to go to the pub - FML - Is it for health or is it for getting smashed with your mates.

Seeing my family would be more important than a ******* beer. 

[MartinTyler]

1 hour ago, wendybr said:

"This is yet another example of the mainstream media lazily circulating a narrative that flatters the worldview of the liberal audience, without bothering to check on any of the details."

 

I'm afraid I can see this everywhere.

And as I said, I haven't decided if it's incompetence and just poor journalism - or part of a wider agenda.

Yeah...sadly in the US it's rampant....Stolen election anyone? 

[Sithslayer1991]

Weren't they playing with idea of vaccine only being able to go outdoors later this month or early October?

As with anything during this whole pandemic its been confusing and unclear

[marron]

1 hour ago, wendybr said:

"This is yet another example of the mainstream media lazily circulating a narrative that flatters the worldview of the liberal audience, without bothering to check on any of the details."

 

I'm afraid I can see this everywhere.

And as I said, I haven't decided if it's incompetence and just poor journalism - or part of a wider agenda.

 

There's multiple factors here. One is that the traditional press has been gutted by shifting revenue streams over the last 2 decades. People don't buy, advertisers don't pay, leaving fact checking staff etc next to non-existant. So many news sources just use straight copy from the source rather than investigating to hard. In a case like this, a doctor claims something and multiple sources have run with it. But think about that for a second. A doctor claims something and multiple sources run with it. That also describes the opposite side of the equation pretty accurately. If we chuck out one, or at least view it with great concern, we must the other. Right?

But when things are verified - when the fact checkers get in and can show, when multiple sources will look at a thing and say, yep, checks out - what then? THen you have to look on balance, right?

Someone in Sydney WAS hospitalised for taking this stuff, that hasn't been disputed. Hardly the throngs of rednecks - but people are doing this stuff.

The treatment trials so far have not been conclusive according to the best authorities we have.

That's as good as we've got in terms of working out what's happening.