Armageddon Thread

[mack]

5 hours ago, Paul01 said:

I just saw a headline from The Australian that the Berejiklian and her ministers have overruled NSW Health on when to reopen. 

NSW Health reportedly advised at 85% before reopening anything, but the B**** Berejiklian came up with 70%

What a s*** show the 11.00am circus will be.

Says it all when their big "freedom day" press release talks about how they "consulted with industry". Instead of the Health department, when they came up with this nonsense 70% figure. The moment She lets it rip companies will completely ignore trying to enforce restrictions and the cops will stop caring unless you're one of their targets in the west.

[Cynth]

6 hours ago, wendybr said:

Regarding "doing the right thing" and people who haven't got the jab being selfish...well, I'd  be more inclined to consider someone who wants to impose their views regarding another person's conscientious medical choices as selfish.

I know people who are agonising about being thrown out of their jobs if they don't get vaccinated. Agonising.

That someone is labelled "selfish" in their choices, by others who want to impose their views, just so they can get back to the pub, or get their hair coloured, is unreasonable...imho

This level of coercion at a personal or societal level,  isn't  happening in other parts of the world. Not on the scale it is happening here, I don't think.

The reality is that people who are choosing not to get the vaccine are facing very harsh consequences. Some will lose their jobs, some will not be able to participate in social and recreational pursuits for a while at least and others will get sick and for a few they will die. 
 

I am in agreement with Wendy that calling someone selfish for choosing this is unhelpful and usually untrue. I do think they are making the wrong decision and that it is based on false information but in the the end, it should be their decision to make. As long as they are making an informed decision that their choice has consequences. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Cynth

[Cynth]

The 70% mark is too low. Delta will smash that measure with sickness and  death. However, having said that, I am happy as a double vaccinated person to get a little freedom back. I will accept it with caution though. I might tip toe outside rather than run free. 

[sonar]

16 minutes ago, Cynth said:

The 70% mark is too low. Delta will smash that measure with sickness and  death. However, having said that, I am happy as a double vaccinated person to get a little freedom back. I will accept it with caution though. I might tip toe outside rather than run free. 

I was just talking with my dad about this and all we want is the opportunity to visit family for a cuppa and a chat etc. He's had both AZ jabs.....I am due for AZ2 on the 28th Sept. We also will be cautious.  There is going to be hell to pay for Gladys if the lifting of restrictions only applies to some parts of Sydney and not others.

"We're all in this together" is their catchcry. We'll see.

Edited September 9, 2021 by sonar

[Waterman]

17 minutes ago, Cynth said:

The 70% mark is too low. Delta will smash that measure with sickness and  death. However, having said that, I am happy as a double vaccinated person to get a little freedom back. I will accept it with caution though. I might tip toe outside rather than run free. 

Why don't you just stay in your cave for the next couple of years. Life is too short and precious so LIVE

[sonar]

Coalition supporters are absolutely going off about what Dr Chant said in a answer

“We will be looking at what contact tracing looks like in the New World Order” – Dr. Chant

Was QAnon right all along....?.......

[wendybr]

3 hours ago, MartinTyler said:

Just in Australia or worldwide?

World wide.

[mack]

7 minutes ago, sonar said:

Coalition supporters are absolutely going off about what Dr Chant said in a answer

“We will be looking at what contact tracing looks like in the New World Order” – Dr. Chant

Was QAnon right all along....?.......

No she's just a WCW fan.

 

[wendybr]

1 minute ago, sonar said:

Coalition supporters are absolutely going off about what Dr Chant said in a answer

“We will be looking at what contact tracing looks like in the New World Order” – Dr. Chant

Was QAnon right all along....?.......

Jeeeez - that will set off those who see this as part of the global elite's plan to depopulate the planet - and they're certainly out there!

[Cynth]

16 minutes ago, Waterman said:

Why don't you just stay in your cave for the next couple of years. Life is too short and precious so LIVE

Thank you for your sarcasm. Although I don’t think it was warranted. 

[MartinTyler]

15 minutes ago, wendybr said:

World wide.

Even in the US where a fair percentage of the anti vaxxers still believe the election was stolen?

[Carns]

40 minutes ago, Cynth said:

I am in agreement with Wendy that calling someone selfish for choosing this is unhelpful and usually untrue. I do think they are making the wrong decision and that it is based on false information but in the the end, it should be their decision to make. As long as they are making an informed decision that their choice has consequences. 

Whilst I agree with freedom of choice, people choosing not to get vaccinated are also potentially choosing to spread the virus further. Realistically, how many people who are against the vaccine and restrictions are going to adhere to the no vax policies? There will be workarounds, ways to exploit it/forge the required documents (as is already happening overseas) and theoretically if these people are out in the community it will be exposing the wider community (or those who can't be vaccinated) to a higher risk. It's the equivalent of letting unvaxxed kids go to child care and potentially infecting other kids.

The argument would be, if you're vaxxed what is your concern? The concern is that people are willingly spreading a highly contagious virus amongst a community without having the best protection to minimise the potential for spread.

[CaptainJess]

@wendybr I respect you a lot Wendy and have agreed with you on a lot of over the years. However, I can't agree with the large majority of your posts and opinions over the past few months. I started trying to respond to some of your assertions a few weeks ago, but I stopped. It's clear nothing anyone says here will sway your opinion or thoughts. You are entitled to them though. 

In response to your post above, I will follow the majority of the medical and scientific community who are backing vaccines and are cautious on potential treatments. Anyone can read a few articles, papers or watch some videos and sound like an expert in YouTube comments. Doesn't mean they have actually understood anything. I don't go around reading scientific articles on vaccines because firstly, I don't have the appropriate knowledge to understand them as well as is required, and secondly, I trust those who are experts in their field to consolidate that information and make informed public health decisions on my behalf. 

If these scientists online are so steadfast and sure of their data and views, then why aren't they going through normal channels and doing studies or writing peer-reviewed articles in legitimate academic journals? I'd hazard a guess to say their credentials don't really stack up or their work would get picked apart and heavily criticised. I don't think any scientist or doctor would be against someone putting forward an alternative view point, but it needs to be done through appropriate channels with proper research to back it up. But it's just easier to put out a video or podcast isn't it?

7 hours ago, wendybr said:

I'd  be more inclined to consider someone who wants to impose their views regarding another person's conscientious medical choices as selfish.

I'd like to point out that I've never used the word selfish in my posts. So I don't know where this came from. But I don't think it's selfish that people wan't to get back to their families, lives and businesses. The only way that happens at this very minute without huge death and suffering is with vaccines. So people who won't take the vaccine are only extending the time it will take for us to get past this thing. Most people are abiding by the rules in place at the moment because they are thinking of others who genuinely can't get vaccinated, it's the very opposite of selfish for the majority of the population.

If people don't want to take a vaccine, it is their choice in the end. And I will always respect people's bodily autonomy. But there will be consequences for your decisions and you may not like them. If I take drugs, it's my choice. But I can't be employed in certain jobs, drive a car etc. Same here. 

6 hours ago, Stokz said:

So @CaptainJess - easy to say the unvaxxed will be a minority, but the truth is - many who got the vax, their hands were forced. 

But ultimately in the end they got vaccinated  You say "forced", I say their objections clearly weren't that strong or morally sound to begin with. If you genuinely don't believe in vaccines, then the consequences shouldn't matter. Most people were probably on the fence through apathy, nervousness or laziness, not against the vaccine. A potentially deadly disease spreading through the community will change people's mind. 

[CaptainJess]

6 hours ago, Unlimited said:

I have some travel credits for Tasmania that I was supposed to use with ex girlfriend. I’ll see if I can roll it into a Melbourne trip in January for the tennis and maybe coincide it with a WSW match at the same time.

Currently watching the US Open and extremely jealous how they have spectators, maybe a trip to New York soon as well?

I've heard there's already been some talk around protocols for next year's AO. Fully vaxxed players will be allowed to pretty much come in as normal. There will be some testing requirements and I assume they will try and limit movement to minimum levels (similar to Tokyo) but on the whole, it seems fairly normal compared to this year's circus. I think you'd be safe booking VIC in January. If it was WA, I'd be sketchy. 

It will be interesting to see how they treat international travel once they get to the targets. I'm assuming it's not going to be a free-for-all. As well as vaccination requirements, I think there will be testing requirements too, either before you come back or within 48hrs after you return (or both). I also think there will be a similar traffic light system to the UK. They certainly aren't going to open up to every country. I'd say places like Fiji, Singapore, Hong Kong will be some of the safer "green" countries. 

Places like Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, some European countries and other smaller nations might be yellow, but I think places like Brazil, India, even the US might still be off limits for a bit. 

I do hope they allow more Australians to come home and do home quarantine in NSW. SA are trialing a similar app to Singapore with facial recognition and location pinging to track arrivals. I think it's a smart solution along with regular testing. 

Personally, wearing masks, some additional testing and even some short home quarantine (<4 days) on return are small prices to pay for travel privileges. I'd be happy to do it all if I could get to some places. 

[Stokz]

1 hour ago, CaptainJess said:

But ultimately in the end they got vaccinated  You say "forced", I say their objections clearly weren't that strong or morally sound to begin with. If you genuinely don't believe in vaccines, then the consequences shouldn't matter. Most people were probably on the fence through apathy, nervousness or laziness, not against the vaccine. A potentially deadly disease spreading through the community will change people's mind. 

Not really - when your and/or your families livelihood is on the line, you'll do anything. If they had an option - I know personally 80-90% wouldn't have had it. Unfortunately I'm now falling into that boat.

[CaptainJess]

12 minutes ago, Stokz said:

Not really - when your and/or your families livelihood is on the line, you'll do anything. If they had an option - I know personally 80-90% wouldn't have had it. Unfortunately I'm now falling into that boat.

So clearly you aren't that strongly against vaccinations? Frame it any way you want, if people truly didn't want it they would not get it regardless of what happens with their job. I know someone who is willing to give up her job because she doesn't want the jab. I don't agree with her, but I admire the fact she's willing to stick to her principles. 

I sound callous, but I don't care if people lose their jobs. Find somewhere to work if you're so strongly against it. Consequences. 

[Stokz]

Wow. LOL.

I'm certainly not against vaccinations that have gone through the proper testing processes at all. My kids are vaccinated.

This one is still in the test phase.

Anyways - I'll keep my job to feed my kids and have a house. 

If I had a choice where I didn't need it for work, and just for the new freedoms, I would wait.

[Cynth]

1 hour ago, Stokz said:

Wow. LOL.

I'm certainly not against vaccinations that have gone through the proper testing processes at all. My kids are vaccinated.

This one is still in the test phase.

Anyways - I'll keep my job to feed my kids and have a house. 

If I had a choice where I didn't need it for work, and just for the new freedoms, I would wait.

So Dr Stokz, can you tell me what the appropriate testing protocols and procedures are for a vaccine? Which parts have been missed in the current studies and how many vaccines have you seen that have had the number of studies and subjects in their studies as has the Fully approved Covid-19 Vaccines? 

 

[Unlimited]

3 hours ago, CaptainJess said:

I've heard there's already been some talk around protocols for next year's AO. Fully vaxxed players will be allowed to pretty much come in as normal. There will be some testing requirements and I assume they will try and limit movement to minimum levels (similar to Tokyo) but on the whole, it seems fairly normal compared to this year's circus. I think you'd be safe booking VIC in January. If it was WA, I'd be sketchy. 

It will be interesting to see how they treat international travel once they get to the targets. I'm assuming it's not going to be a free-for-all. As well as vaccination requirements, I think there will be testing requirements too, either before you come back or within 48hrs after you return (or both). I also think there will be a similar traffic light system to the UK. They certainly aren't going to open up to every country. I'd say places like Fiji, Singapore, Hong Kong will be some of the safer "green" countries. 

Places like Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, some European countries and other smaller nations might be yellow, but I think places like Brazil, India, even the US might still be off limits for a bit. 

I do hope they allow more Australians to come home and do home quarantine in NSW. SA are trialing a similar app to Singapore with facial recognition and location pinging to track arrivals. I think it's a smart solution along with regular testing. 

Personally, wearing masks, some additional testing and even some short home quarantine (<4 days) on return are small prices to pay for travel privileges. I'd be happy to do it all if I could get to some places. 

Very sad about the US

But yes agree on wanting to get to places. I have a late October holiday which is almost certainly kaput which is infuriating because when we first went into lockdown, I remember saying to my friends, "Don't worry about our (August) ski trip, it's like two months away". Trip got cancelled. I also remember saying to my friends, "Don't worry about our October holiday house trip, that's four months away". Nope.

As an aside, the thing that gets to me is this insistence from some quarters on this nebulous "economy". As far as I'm concerned, the economy serves us. We don't serve the economy. The economy is there so that we can go out and live life, go on holidays, go to restaurants, go to pubs, go watch sporting events, and all the rest of it.

Gladys' and Morrison's stupidity now means those precious tourism dollars my friends and I would've spent are now going overseas at the next opportunity. It will be converted into NZD or SGD and hopefully some USD or CAD soon.

So yes I do home they sort out this quarantine situation because I'd love to go on holiday. And it'll be a big one for sure. I got my annual leave saved up and my travel credits and it's just waiting for that final bit of the puzzle to fall into place.

The longer we stay in lockdown, the more livid I get. In the words of Craig Foster, "It's a disgrace." I was watching the US Open this morning and they have crowds. They can leave their house. They can go places.

[Stokz]

1 hour ago, Cynth said:

So Dr Stokz, can you tell me what the appropriate testing protocols and procedures are for a vaccine? Which parts have been missed in the current studies and how many vaccines have you seen that have had the number of studies and subjects in their studies as has the Fully approved Covid-19 Vaccines? 

 

I never claimed to be a Dr by any means, and no I don’t have that information you are asking for.

To be honest no one knows, what the long term effects will be for such a new technology in vaccines. Could all be fine, and I guess we will all find out. I just hope it’s all good. 

[Paul01]

Kerry Chant did not directly support Berejiklian during questioning at today's press conference.

Chant deliberately avoided the question regarding what would happen if the Reproduction Rate (the magical R number) remained above 1. Instead she basically promoted 90% vaccination (1st dose) by the 18th October.

At least we aren't doing the UK Freedom Day. Its getting bad over there again.

Chant also avoided the direct question of whether NSW Health advised NSW Cabinet recommended an 85% double-vaccination.

[Cynth]

1 hour ago, Stokz said:

I never claimed to be a Dr by any means, and no I don’t have that information you are asking for.

To be honest no one knows, what the long term effects will be for such a new technology in vaccines. Could all be fine, and I guess we will all find out. I just hope it’s all good. 

We can only take the consensus of the  worlds scientists. That’s all we got. And the information that mRNA technology has been used for two decades. 

[Unlimited]

1 hour ago, Stokz said:

I never claimed to be a Dr by any means, and no I don’t have that information you are asking for.

To be honest no one knows, what the long term effects will be for such a new technology in vaccines. Could all be fine, and I guess we will all find out. I just hope it’s all good. 

I’ve addressed this point before. We are still alive today DESPITE all the “medical” treatments they used to use in the old days: drilling into the skull to “release pressure on the brain”, using leeches to drain blood from the body, and goodness knows what else

[CaptainJess]

6 hours ago, Cynth said:

So Dr Stokz, can you tell me what the appropriate testing protocols and procedures are for a vaccine? Which parts have been missed in the current studies and how many vaccines have you seen that have had the number of studies and subjects in their studies as has the Fully approved Covid-19 Vaccines? 

Cynth, you’ve been killing it with your posts today. 

We have over 100 years of research behind us on vaccine development, efficacy and side-effects. We have over 20 years research on mRNA technology. We have nearly 20 years worth of research and development on a SARS (coronavirus) vaccine. 

These COVID vaccines have been in testing and use for nearly a year now. Over 5.6B doses have been administered. They are some of the most heavily scrutinised and tracked vaccines of all time. 

Most vaccines spend the majority of their time in the R&D phase. This is where things often stall due to funding or competing priorities. However, when you have a deadly virus killing millions of people around the globe, suddenly resources, funding and red tape are no longer an issue (who’d have thought!). It also helps when you’ve got a whole lot of previous R&D done on a similar virus and vaccine technology. They’ve done the proper testing. They tracked issues and side-effects. They are safe and effective. 

No vaccine currently in use today for other diseases has shown any long term side-effects beyond six months. Vaccines don’t cause long term side effects. But COVID certainly does, and we’re just starting to scratch the surface on all the major health problems it’s causing. 

Vaccines have eradicated smallpox and have effectively eliminated polio, mumps, diphtheria and rubella from most of the developed world. But now in 2021, it’s all a big pharma conspiracy and they’re trying to control us. Maybe we should bring back the iron lungs just for fun? 

Edited September 9, 2021 by CaptainJess
.

[Cynth]

8 hours ago, Paul01 said:

Kerry Chant did not directly support Berejiklian during questioning at today's press conference.

Chant deliberately avoided the question regarding what would happen if the Reproduction Rate (the magical R number) remained above 1. Instead she basically promoted 90% vaccination (1st dose) by the 18th October.

At least we aren't doing the UK Freedom Day. Its getting bad over there again.

Chant also avoided the direct question of whether NSW Health advised NSW Cabinet recommended an 85% double-vaccination.

Can I just ask why you say it’s getting bad in the UK again? From what I can see the case numbers are still very high but the death rate remains very, very low. I would think that the UK have in fact shown what we hoped. That the vaccine would prevent death despite high case numbers. They do however now have 80% of eligible people double vaccinated (that is people 16 years and older). 

[Paul01]

1 hour ago, Cynth said:

Can I just ask why you say it’s getting bad in the UK again? From what I can see the case numbers are still very high but the death rate remains very, very low. I would think that the UK have in fact shown what we hoped. That the vaccine would prevent death despite high case numbers. They do however now have 80% of eligible people double vaccinated (that is people 16 years and older). 

It looks to be Boris Johnson's Freedom Day approach with no restrictions.

Infections increasing, hospitalisations increasing and death all increasing 

Look at the data in the link

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And this was reported recently by Dr John Campbell. I follow him and Wendy does as well.

In other countries with high vaccination rates there are still hospitalisations and death. The data for Malta, Iceland and UAE all with highly vaccinated populations for the last 14 days. I am not sure on what age range these countries base their vaccination rates

Country.|population|Cases.|Deaths|% vacc
Iceland..|343,870....|799.....|..........1|77.07
Malta....|442,938.....|689.....|..........9|80.52
UAE......|10,031,996|13,618|........25|77.11

What this highlights to me is that Berejiklian is playing fire using 70% of the NSW population 16+. If she used 70% of population 12+ as well as 14 days after achieving 70% to open slightly, it would be closer to 85% of the population 16+

[MartinTyler]

I think that the UK took an 'open slather' approach when they opened up with fewer restrictions than proposed here. Kids are back at school now after the summer break and they are also moving into the colder times so it will be very interesting to follow in the coming months.

[Paul01]

Well Hunt has stuffed up AGAIN

COVID-19 vaccination certificates at risk of forgery after discovery of another security flaw https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-09-10/covid-19-vaccination-certificate-can-be-easily-forged/100441774

[Stokz]

1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

What this highlights to me is that Berejiklian is playing fire using 70% of the NSW population 16+. If she used 70% of population 12+ as well as 14 days after achieving 70% to open slightly, it would be closer to 85% of the population 16+

Come on guys. 

Which country waited for 70% of 12+ population to get out of a strict lockdown. Most were opening up at 40-50% of 16+.

Our opening is pretty limited. Only vaccinated can participate in it.

 

[Cynth]

1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

It looks to be Boris Johnson's Freedom Day approach with no restrictions.

Infections increasing, hospitalisations increasing and death all increasing 

Look at the data in the link

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

And this was reported recently by Dr John Campbell. I follow him and Wendy does as well.

In other countries with high vaccination rates there are still hospitalisations and death. The data for Malta, Iceland and UAE all with highly vaccinated populations for the last 14 days. I am not sure on what age range these countries base their vaccination rates

Country.|population|Cases.|Deaths|% vacc
Iceland..|343,870....|799.....|..........1|77.07
Malta....|442,938.....|689.....|..........9|80.52
UAE......|10,031,996|13,618|........25|77.11

What this highlights to me is that Berejiklian is playing fire using 70% of the NSW population 16+. If she used 70% of population 12+ as well as 14 days after achieving 70% to open slightly, it would be closer to 85% of the population 16+

I understand you arguments. The link shows 7 day averages which show a small rise but I think can be a bit misleading if you are not comparing to the peak of their previous outbreaks. Maybe this is what living with the disease looks like? Still a lot of cases, relatively less deaths but in the unvaccinated? 
 

Although I do agree that 70% is ambitious, I think the data you describe shows us that Delta is here to stay till we have effective treatments. Get vaccinated or get sick, that’s the choice. We need to move on at least by 80% of the eligible population being vaccinated.