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Interesting, love to see the reaction by those having a go at NSW re the 70% ..

VIC looks like copying and doing the same.. or very similar... and this is with cases increasing faster than NSW even tho daily numbers are less.

I hope and pray this takes some of the politics out of the debate .... 

 

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1 hour ago, CaptainJess said:

 

The whole aim of vaccinations is to keep serious illness and death to a minimum. At some point, we need to accept there will be cases. There's cautious and then there's too cautious. I still think Australia is in a precarious position at this very moment, but come December if we're at 80-85%, we need to be looking at bare minimum restrictions. 

Pretty much this any higher than 80% and that would be lucky, certain restrictions will remain for a while still and hopefully it doesn't blow beyond the Health emergency services capabilities. I mean fingers crossed but I think the important information to take from this article is that sufficient funding needs to be provided to Health services to allow accessibility to ambulances, beds and quarantine equipment etc etc etc. 

Prepare as best possible so that the impact isn't severe.

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Those vaccine passports are going really well overseas!

 (25) PARIS PROTESTS 11 SEPTEMBER 2021 | France protests Pass Sanitaire for 9th week! Travel Vlog #89 - YouTube

Not sure how many in this past weekend's protest....140,000 the previous weekend in Paris.

(25) YOU NEED PASS SANITAIRE TO EAT IN PARIS | Emptier restaurants & terraces! Talking Thursdays Vlog #80 - YouTube

 

Happening all over Europe and North America...Israel...

(25) "No to covid passports" protest in Dublin, Phoenix Park, 15/07/2021. - YouTube

 

Not that you'd know anything much of these from the mainstream media here.

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2 hours ago, wendybr said:

Ffs Wendy GBNews 

Right Wing Brexit Loon TV

Its basically Britain's answer to OAN or newsmax

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, wendybr said:

Those vaccine passports are going really well overseas!

 (25) PARIS PROTESTS 11 SEPTEMBER 2021 | France protests Pass Sanitaire for 9th week! Travel Vlog #89 - YouTube

Not sure how many in this past weekend's protest....140,000 the previous weekend in Paris.

(25) YOU NEED PASS SANITAIRE TO EAT IN PARIS | Emptier restaurants & terraces! Talking Thursdays Vlog #80 - YouTube

 

Happening all over Europe and North America...Israel...

(25) "No to covid passports" protest in Dublin, Phoenix Park, 15/07/2021. - YouTube

 

Not that you'd know anything much of these from the mainstream media here.

We do not hear about about many things in Australia except if the press barons want us to.

For instance, the recent ousting of the President of Guinea (a country in sub-saharan Africa) by the their military. The the reason for the ousting was perceived or real corruption. But we wouldn't get a balanced picture because it is a former French colony, French is is the official language and who amongst the press-barons cares about Guinea. Only the ones who want to suppress news in case their exploitative investments go belly-up

The protests in France have made the news here but only fleetingly.

My suspicion is that Morrison and his bullying ministers have rung the chairman of 9 News and Kerry Stokes to ask them to suppress (but not eliminate) any stories where there is a challenge to Covid-19 restrictions worldwide.

There should be a healthy debate on the issues you raise. But there are some here who simply say no to everything on Covid-19 restrictions.

At the moment, the restrictions are there for the greater good. 

Vaccination is for the greater good but some see it as an affront of their personal freedom to choose.

However, we do not want live in the world of science fiction where the two types of people with one type being normal and the other being mutant. We have enough of the two types of people in this world now economically, the haves and the have-nots. 

Unfortunately, there are 2 sides to every argument and we will never settle it here. 

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3 hours ago, wendybr said:

Those vaccine passports are going really well overseas!

 (25) PARIS PROTESTS 11 SEPTEMBER 2021 | France protests Pass Sanitaire for 9th week! Travel Vlog #89 - YouTube

Not sure how many in this past weekend's protest....140,000 the previous weekend in Paris.

(25) YOU NEED PASS SANITAIRE TO EAT IN PARIS | Emptier restaurants & terraces! Talking Thursdays Vlog #80 - YouTube

Happening all over Europe and North America...Israel...

(25) "No to covid passports" protest in Dublin, Phoenix Park, 15/07/2021. - YouTube

Not that you'd know anything much of these from the mainstream media here.

The real question should be…

When are people in France NOT protesting? It’s like their favourite past-time over there.

They would protest puppies and unicorns just because they can. 

But in all seriousness, the media have covered it. It’s on the ABC, news.com.au, Al Jazeera and the AP. Your mates at Sky News even covered it. It was also on one of the commercial TV stations yesterday as I was flicking. 

Come on Wendy - 140,000 out of 67,000,000 is like 0.2% of the population. Even if you take the highest number of protestors so far - around 280,000 - it’s still only 0.5% of the total population of France. Let’s say there’s 10x the amount of people who didn’t march but agree with the cause. That’s only 5% of their people. These numbers aren’t the overwhelming majority you think they are. 

Should we just get rid of driver’s licenses? Why should you have to show proof that you can drive a vehicle or that you’re over 18 to buy alcohol? Is that an injustice or invasion of your privacy? Or is that keeping the community safe from people who may harm themselves and others? 

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32 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

However, we do not want live in the world of science fiction where the two types of people with one type being normal and the other being mutant. We have enough of the two types of people in this world now economically, the haves and the have-nots.

My recent favourite from the anti-vaxxers is when they try and compare themselves to African Americans or South African people of the segregation and Apartheid era.

They also love thinking they’re soon going to be made to wear yellow stars or get their vaccination status tattooed on them.  

People are honestly acting like being able to travel or go to the pub is the equivalent of concentration camps, torture or public lynchings. 

We are literally being asked to stay home on our couches, get a needle and show a document. 

My boyfriend had his house burnt down in front of him during war. They killed his pet dog. His father was in a POW camp for months. He walked hundreds of KM’s with his mother to flee his home country from persecution because of his religion and nationality.

And they honestly have the gall to claim they’re being discriminated or persecuted for their beliefs. Get absolutely ****ed. 

Edited by CaptainJess
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9 hours ago, wendybr said:

 

Not that you'd know anything much of these from the mainstream media here.

This makes you sound really quite paranoid

It's not on mainstream media in Australia for a variety of reasons not least of which it isn't particularly newsworthy to an Australian audience

If you want to get your fix of anti-locldown it's the government taking control paranoia, turne into skynews read peta credlin there is plenty to keep you happy there

.

 

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5 hours ago, Paul01 said:

We do not hear about about many things in Australia except if the press barons want us to.

For instance, the recent ousting of the President of Guinea (a country in sub-saharan Africa) by the their military. The the reason for the ousting was perceived or real corruption. But we wouldn't get a balanced picture because it is a former French colony, French is is the official language and who amongst the press-barons cares about Guinea. Only the ones who want to suppress news in case their exploitative investments go belly-up

The protests in France have made the news here but only fleetingly.

My suspicion is that Morrison and his bullying ministers have rung the chairman of 9 News and Kerry Stokes to ask them to suppress (but not eliminate) any stories where there is a challenge to Covid-19 restrictions worldwide.

There should be a healthy debate on the issues you raise. But there are some here who simply say no to everything on Covid-19 restrictions.

At the moment, the restrictions are there for the greater good. 

Vaccination is for the greater good but some see it as an affront of their personal freedom to choose.

However, we do not want live in the world of science fiction where the two types of people with one type being normal and the other being mutant. We have enough of the two types of people in this world now economically, the haves and the have-nots. 

Unfortunately, there are 2 sides to every argument and we will never settle it here. 

LOL. Guinea ? Who gives a f***k about Guinea. I reckon 99% of Australians wouldn't know where Guinea is or even what it is.

The only thing I have ever heard or read about Guinea is about it's human rights abuses or high rate of female genital mutilation.

But it's ScoMo's fault its not front page news in bold letters. Oh yea , it's Glady's fault too !

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3 minutes ago, theseeker said:

But it's ScoMo's fault its not front page news in bold letters. Oh yea , it's Glady's fault too

You have never spoken a truer word and admitted that they are both at fault for s*** storm Australia is in

:yahoo:

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2 minutes ago, Paul01 said:

You have never spoken a truer word and admitted that they are both at fault for s*** storm Australia is in

:yahoo:

No it shows you are not even smart enough to know sarcasm when it's staring you in the face. Guinea , wake up to yourself.

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8 hours ago, CaptainJess said:

Come on Wendy - 140,000 out of 67,000,000 is like 0.2% of the population. Even if you take the highest number of protestors so far - around 280,000 - it’s still only 0.5% of the total population of France. Let’s say there’s 10x the amount of people who didn’t march but agree with the cause. That’s only 5% of their people. These numbers aren’t the overwhelming majority you think they are. 

Should we just get rid of driver’s licenses? Why should you have to show proof that you can drive a vehicle or that you’re over 18 to buy alcohol? Is that an injustice or invasion of your privacy? Or is that keeping the community safe from people who may harm themselves and others? 

Say what you want - those are big numbers, when have you ever had a 5million person protest (couple hundred thousand is common for protests.) To do that continuously now for 8 weekends in a row, shows its a very big deal for the people of France.

Now your claim of only 5% of people supporting is wrong on so many levels, where did you find those stats from. If their vaccination rate is currently around 65% - would suggest that those opposing vaccine passports would be at least 30% minimum - given so many protesting are also vaccinated. 

The driver license analogy just doesn't make sense - to get a drivers license, it's a competency in your driving skills. I don't get the relevancy. 

Where a vaccine passport makes sense is if the vaccine stopped the spread of virus, unfortunately this one does not, so I don't see the point of a vaccine passport especially once you reach 80% double dose. If you have your vaccine, you are protected so you shouldn't care if there are unvaccinated people there, their danger is only to themselves.

Edited by Stokz
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9 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

Pretty disappointed in Neil Oliver being a loon. What next Brian Cox on why all immigrants should go back home? 

 

 

 

That's all so easy, isn't it - to call someone a "loon" and write him/her off - with your fingers in your ears, so as not to hear, or even consider for a moment what that person might have to say.

As the tide turns on this, which I think is beginning, you will be caught unaware - if you don't want to stop for that moment to look at a different perspective. Or even try to understand it.

It's very sad - and it's everywhere.

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35 minutes ago, Stokz said:

Say what you want - those are big numbers, when have you ever had a 5million person protest (couple hundred thousand is common for protests.) To do that continuously now for 8 weekends in a row, shows its a very big deal for the people of France.

But as I showed, they aren’t big numbers protesting. They sound big, but they aren’t. How many millions of vaccinated French people were out and about enjoying their weekend? I’d say quite a few more. 

And again, the French love complaining, some civil disobedience and a good protest.

41 minutes ago, Stokz said:

Now your claim of only 5% of people supporting is wrong on so many levels, where did you find those stats from. If their vaccination rate is currently around 65% - would suggest that those opposing vaccine passports would be at least 30% minimum - given so many protesting are also vaccinated. 

I never claimed only 5% of people support the cause. I used the figure for illustration purposes to show that even if support of the protests was 10x greater than those in the streets, it’s still only a small proportion of their population. 

But I’ll humour you. Actual studies and reports (peer-reviewed, WHO, Melbourne Institute) place “moral objectors” to vaccines on average at about 10-15% of any population. These rates obviously fluctuate country to country. In Australia, we’re actually more like 5-10%, less in childhood vaccines which sit at around 96-97% uptake. 

I will give you that’s there’s likely to be more vaccine hesitant people for this shot. These objectors and hesitant people are going to be the same ones protesting passports. I really doubt many people who have been double vaxxed would be against them. It’s still a minority of the population. 
 

1 hour ago, Stokz said:

The driver license analogy just doesn't make sense - to get a drivers license, it's a competency in your driving skills. I don't get the relevancy. 

Yes it does. It’s a piece of identification that demonstrates you meet certain criteria to undertake a particular activity. Not just driving - drinking, gambling, entering certain venues, procuring prescription medication/knives/tobacco. Even if you don’t drive, most people will have an official identity card.

It’s also a quick and easy way to verify you meet the particular criteria. 

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13 hours ago, wendybr said:

Those vaccine passports are going really well overseas!

 (25) PARIS PROTESTS 11 SEPTEMBER 2021 | France protests Pass Sanitaire for 9th week! Travel Vlog #89 - YouTube

Not sure how many in this past weekend's protest....140,000 the previous weekend in Paris.

(25) YOU NEED PASS SANITAIRE TO EAT IN PARIS | Emptier restaurants & terraces! Talking Thursdays Vlog #80 - YouTube

 

Happening all over Europe and North America...Israel...

(25) "No to covid passports" protest in Dublin, Phoenix Park, 15/07/2021. - YouTube

 

Not that you'd know anything much of these from the mainstream media here.

You keep saying this isn’t in the mainstream news. A simple google search of “vaccine passport protests” shows you it is in ALL the mainstream news. From various countries.  Especially the France protests which have been relentless. 

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Europe are in varying stages of “vaccine passports”, have implemented them fairly successfully and some countries starting to withdraw them as they have outlived their usefulness. As usual, Australia still having the discussion about whether to implement them (as if the government hasn’t already decided), while Europe are moving on. 
 

The article does say that the vaccine passport protests in France have halved in size since July. 

 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/13/covid-passports-what-are-european-countries-doing

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6 minutes ago, Cynth said:

You keep saying this isn’t in the mainstream news. A simple google search of “vaccine passport protests” shows you it is in ALL the mainstream news. From various countries.  Especially the France protests which have been relentless. 

exactly

it is in the news

If it Australian news that we are referring to a few people in France protesting a french law is hardly going to be Channel 10 lead story.

Besides which, what is the point @wendybr you are making. That because some people in France are pissed off about vaccine passports that we shouldn't ensure public heath in Australia.

 

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I'm going to paraphrase Goering here and say whenever I read the acronym MSM I reach for the pinch of salt.

Traditional media has a whole range of issues, but they are nothing compared to the issues around information spreading via social media. As you say, they do report on this stuff - not least the parts of the mainstream media that are the main sources of info for people who believe that the mainstream media is a con. The phrase "MSM" is as much of a tell as claiming logical fallacies or talking about critical race theory or calling someone a marxist. It's all part of the package. It's a convenient way to disengage with, not unlike the vaccines, the best ,albeit imperfect, thing we have, and usually has zero substance. "The MSM don't want you to know..." - well, that is, indeed, easy to say.

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1 hour ago, Stokz said:

If you have your vaccine, you are protected so you shouldn't care if there are unvaccinated people there, their danger is only to themselves.

I quoted this separately to my other post because this is such a dangerous argument that all anti-vaxxers are using and it’s wrong on so many levels. 

1) You’re a danger to those in the population who legitimately can’t get vaccinated because of health issues or allergies to vaccines. These people require others to get vaccinated. Herd immunity. 

2) If you’re unvaccinated, get sick from COVID and end up in hospital or worse ICU, you are taking a bed off someone who has been in a bad accident, had major surgery, had a heart attack, has cancer etc. You’re taking away resources like beds and nurses that could be used to care for others who didn’t have a choice whether or not they ended up in hospital. 

3) Unvaccinated people allow the virus to spread more easily. You give it more lines of transmission. Vaccines have been shown to reduce transmission by well over 50-60%, more if both people are vaccinated and taking other precautions like distancing and masks. The vaccine reduces your viral load if you catch it. This means you’re less likely to get sick, but also less likely to transmit. Nobody is arguing vaccinated people can’t spread, but they are significantly less likely to. 

4) Large amounts of transmission in unvaccinated populations leads to mutations and variants. We’ve seen delta is far more transmissible. There could be a variant in the future that is more resistant to vaccines and far more deadly. The risk of mutations is far far less in highly vaccinated populations. 

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6 minutes ago, CaptainJess said:

But as I showed, they aren’t big numbers protesting. They sound big, but they aren’t. How many millions of vaccinated French people were out and about enjoying their weekend? I’d say quite a few more. 

And again, the French love complaining, some civil disobedience and a good protest.

 

6 minutes ago, CaptainJess said:

I never claimed only 5% of people support the cause. I used the figure for illustration purposes to show that even if support of the protests was 10x greater than those in the streets, it’s still only a small proportion of their population. 

But I’ll humour you. Actual studies and reports (peer-reviewed, WHO, Melbourne Institute) place “moral objectors” to vaccines on average at about 10-15% of any population. These rates obviously fluctuate country to country. In Australia, we’re actually more like 5-10%, less in childhood vaccines which sit at around 96-97% uptake. 

I will give you that’s there’s likely to be more vaccine hesitant people for this shot. These objectors and hesitant people are going to be the same ones protesting passports. I really doubt many people who have been double vaxxed would be against them. It’s still a minority of the population. 

The French value freedom and liberty as the cornerstones of their society, so when you say the French like complaining - it's because it's engrained in how they function as a society. They've been through a lot history to get there.

In terms of your protest numbers as a % of total population, then basically every protest in whole world would be considered small. From the clips I've seen there was a plenty who were jabbed but believe in Freedom of choice.

 

7 minutes ago, CaptainJess said:

Yes it does. It’s a piece of identification that demonstrates you meet certain criteria to undertake a particular activity. Not just driving - drinking, gambling, entering certain venues, procuring prescription medication/knives/tobacco. Even if you don’t drive, most people will have an official identity card.

It’s also a quick and easy way to verify you meet the particular criteria. 

That would make sense if vaccine stopped the spread, if it doesn't - why then should I have to be vaccinated to go to the shops or a cafe? The only person I am endangering is myself. Your protected so what's the worry.  

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9 minutes ago, Stokz said:

The French value freedom and liberty as the cornerstones of their society, so when you say the French like complaining - it's because it's engrained in how they function as a society. They've been through a lot history to get there.

Can I just say, they might value their freedom in France but almost 80% of Frances eligible population is vaccinated. (That equates to almost 70% of their entire population). Perhaps the freedom of health rates higher there than freedom to go to a cafe? 
 

I think what Jess was saying is that France protests a lot. They are a vocal bunch but perhaps those on the streets represent the minority. 

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7 minutes ago, CaptainJess said:

I quoted this separately to my other post because this is such a dangerous argument that all anti-vaxxers are using and it’s wrong on so many levels. 

1) You’re a danger to those in the population who legitimately can’t get vaccinated because of health issues or allergies to vaccines. These people require others to get vaccinated. Herd immunity. 

2) If you’re unvaccinated, get sick from COVID and end up in hospital or worse ICU, you are taking a bed off someone who has been in a bad accident, had major surgery, had a heart attack, has cancer etc. You’re taking away resources like beds and nurses that could be used to care for others who didn’t have a choice whether or not they ended up in hospital. 

3) Unvaccinated people allow the virus to spread more easily. You give it more lines of transmission. Vaccines have been shown to reduce transmission by well over 50-60%, more if both people are vaccinated and taking other precautions like distancing and masks. The vaccine reduces your viral load if you catch it. This means you’re less likely to get sick, but also less likely to transmit. Nobody is arguing vaccinated people can’t spread, but they are significantly less likely to. 

4) Large amounts of transmission in unvaccinated populations leads to mutations and variants. We’ve seen delta is far more transmissible. There could be a variant in the future that is more resistant to vaccines and far more deadly. The risk of mutations is far far less in highly vaccinated populations. 

1  & 3) Again Yes, if the Covid vaccine stopped the spread. It doesn't. Might reduce it somewhat (not sure about significantly). Look at UK, Israel.

You can't get Herd Immunity with Covid, it will be endemic like the Flu. Everyone will get it.

I totally agree that it does protect against serious disease.

2) Do we say the same with smokers, drug users and alcoholics, heavily obese people etc?

4) That's a what if - also what happens to a lot of virus, is that they mutate and become more transmissible but also lot less deadly.

 

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

That's all so easy, isn't it - to call someone a "loon" and write him/her off - with your fingers in your ears, so as not to hear, or even consider for a moment what that person might have to say.

As the tide turns on this, which I think is beginning, you will be caught unaware - if you don't want to stop for that moment to look at a different perspective. Or even try to understand it.

It's very sad - and it's everywhere.

I have sent you very long posts on my perspective. I went through point by point, I even removed all trace of the word nutter. I've watched your YouTube clips, I have followed their feeds, I have researched their backgrounds etc. To the point where I hate to think what my YouTube profile thinks I'm into.

And all I get from you is Emojis, and more YouTube clips from dubious sources. This one coms from GBNews a right wing cable channel watched by next to nobody in the UK (a 2 second google search would tell you that) 

Whatever I post you have made your mind up before you read it, if you read it at all. You are yet to respond properly to my core view and instead manically fire off more clips on a side issue.

"if you don't want to stop for that moment to look at a different perspective. Or even try to understand it."

Not to be rude, actually i'm past caring if it is rude, so to be rude. It is a bit rich for you to say, this when basically you are only open to the views of your cool 'alt-right' friends and a variety of YouTube clips all of them peddling the same already disproven lines. 

You have taken absolutely nothing onboard from any argument that I or anyone else has made (cool alt-right kids excepted).

But yes it is very easy to right off a racist blues guitarists view on vaccines as a loon, or a TV historian on a right wing news channel, or doctor who sells 'wellness' treatments on YouTube, or a psychologist who calls himself the professor against political correctness. It is slightly harder for me to take the time, research some of the more obscure ones, and I've burned way too much of my time doing that.

If the scientific and reputable medical consensus changes on COVID, then my view will change with it, as I trust that system, as opposed to the guy of Coast who says or Eric Clapton.

ask yourself if you will? So far  would appear that you won't, you will dismiss it as conspiracy by the 'authorities' and the 'mainstream' media.

 

"It's very sad - and it's everywhere."

Yes At the moment you are seeing it everywhere

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36 minutes ago, Stokz said:

1  & 3) Again Yes, if the Covid vaccine stopped the spread. It doesn't. Might reduce it somewhat (not sure about significantly). Look at UK, Israel.

You can't get Herd Immunity with Covid, it will be endemic like the Flu. Everyone will get it.

I totally agree that it does protect against serious disease.

2) Do we say the same with smokers, drug users and alcoholics, heavily obese people etc?

4) That's a what if - also what happens to a lot of virus, is that they mutate and become more transmissible but also lot less deadly.

 

Okay, I will look at the UK and Israel. I'd like you to read this article by the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. They actually quote two major studies that show vaccines reduce spread and viral load. You want to take a guess where those studies were from? I'll tell you - the UK and Israel. There's even links to the actual studies in the article for your benefit.

https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/mounting-evidence-suggests-covid-vaccines-do-reduc

The article quotes the same figures I do. 40-60% reduction in transmission. 

Yes, you're right. We might never be able to achieve optimal herd immunity with COVID. The vaccine hesitant make that impossible. But vulnerable people will be much safer if we can get very high rates of uptake (>85%).

2) Those things you mentioned aren't dangerous infectious diseases that require additional staffing, PPE, health/hygiene protocols and expensive equipment like ventilators. Issues like these have also been managed at an acceptable level in day-to-day hospital operations for decades. When have you ever seen our ICU's overrun and at capacity with obese people? Never, but they sure are overloaded to breaking point with COVID patients at the moment. Also, if the cure for addiction was as simple as a needle, those things wouldn't be a problem any longer. 

4) Yes, that can happen. They hypothesise that in conjunction with a certain level of immunity in the population, a mutation is what got rid of the Spanish Flu. But more resistant mutations are a dangerous possibility. It's not a what if - we've already seen Delta, they're following Lambda closely and now Mu is looking concerning. 

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