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Armageddon Thread


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On 4) the more virus you have the more and quicker it mutates that's pretty simple. Of course the problem here is not just getting over those that have the luxury to choose not to get vaccinated in the rich countries, but the developing world that don't as of yet have a choice. 

The more we reduce the virus, the less (or slower) it will mutate, which gives us a chance to get ahead of it and stay ahead of it

The other bit to go all libertarian on you, why should my taxes pay for ICU hospital costs for somebody who took a libertarian choice to not get vaccinated. 

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4 hours ago, CaptainJess said:

Okay, I will look at the UK and Israel. I'd like you to read this article by the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. They actually quote two major studies that show vaccines reduce spread and viral load. You want to take a guess where those studies were from? I'll tell you - the UK and Israel. There's even links to the actual studies in the article for your benefit.

https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/mounting-evidence-suggests-covid-vaccines-do-reduc

The article quotes the same figures I do. 40-60% reduction in transmission. 

Yes, you're right. We might never be able to achieve optimal herd immunity with COVID. The vaccine hesitant make that impossible. But vulnerable people will be much safer if we can get very high rates of uptake (>85%).

2) Those things you mentioned aren't dangerous infectious diseases that require additional staffing, PPE, health/hygiene protocols and expensive equipment like ventilators. Issues like these have also been managed at an acceptable level in day-to-day hospital operations for decades. When have you ever seen our ICU's overrun and at capacity with obese people? Never, but they sure are overloaded to breaking point with COVID patients at the moment. Also, if the cure for addiction was as simple as a needle, those things wouldn't be a problem any longer. 

4) Yes, that can happen. They hypothesise that in conjunction with a certain level of immunity in the population, a mutation is what got rid of the Spanish Flu. But more resistant mutations are a dangerous possibility. It's not a what if - we've already seen Delta, they're following Lambda closely and now Mu is looking concerning. 

The article you're quoting there is largely based on an original article from April/May. This one.

Mounting evidence suggests COVID vaccines do reduce transmission. How does this work? (theconversation.com)

Much has changed since then.

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I just have to laugh at anyone who uses anything that Ruddick idiot says. 

And yes, we should listen to Campbell Newman. One of the most unpopular Premiers in QLD history, who tried to sell off the State and was one of only two sitting Premier to lose his seat at an election. Such an expert on the matter /s :rolleyes:

There are stark differences between the UK experience and our situation here in Australia. Their reasons for not using the passports are not really applicable here. Australian’s also respect people’s right not to die here a little bit more than BoJo does.  

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31 minutes ago, Stokz said:

 

Interesting read above.

But why do you think UK is not following the Covid passport rule ?

There are a few bits that I disagree with pretty strongly.

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If we had introduced a flu vaccine passport then, yes, there would have been a small reduction in flu fatalities, but it's also true that there would be fewer fatalities if we banned motor vehicles. Both are absurd suggestions because it would have been self-evident that the collateral economic and societal damage was too high a price.

What's absurd is equating banning cars with a vaccine passport. The car is the cause of the harm, so the equivalent would be banning the flu. It doesn't make sense. As mentioned previously in this thread, the better comparison to a vaccine passport is a drivers licence. Evidence that some controls have been put in place to reduce the risk of harm. Nobody argues that drivers licences lead to "collateral economic and societal damage that is too high", even though not having a licence means people can lose their jobs.

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If we had no lockdowns then our overall fatalities would have risen but these statistical ratios would have held.

We saw overseas that this just isn't true. Once you overwhelm the health system the death rate goes up. People who would have survived by receiving top level care will either get compromised care, or as we saw in some developed countries, no care at all. Our system is currently stretched to the point that elective and non-critical procedures are being postponed, and we're still seeing ambulances queueing up for hours to get in to hospitals. Imagine things without a lockdown.

He mentions the flu, and that's a great example of how effective lockdowns are. In 2019 there were 953 confirmed flu deaths. In 2020 it was 37. To date there have been 0 confirmed flu deaths in 2021. If lockdowns for covid managed to reduce flu deaths from nearly 1000 to 0, yet we're currently seeing about 50 deaths a week from covid, I imagine things would be pretty bad without the lockdowns, and how easily the health system would be overwhelmed.

Also I disagree with the overall premise, as I think we should be doing more to address the flu. We already do more, and give up more, to prevent things that cause far fewer deaths.

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The credit belongs to Tory backbenchers who in significant numbers voiced their concerns about legislating a two-tier society and the marginalisation of millions.

I'm sure there will be a lot of people in the UK surprised to hear that the party that tried to end free meals for the poor during a lockdown are to thank for preventing a two-tier society and marginalisation. They also supported a lockdown that Newman believes was unnecessary, but he gives them a pass on that.

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12 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Much has changed since then.

They’ve changed how vaccines work since May? Colour me shocked. Never heard about that on the mainstream news. 

The only thing that’s changed since May is more detail on the efficacy against symptomatic infection and the rate of waning being experienced. This research has started the conversations around the next phase of maintenance and the development of plans around boosters (which most believed would always be needed at some point). This was always going to happen at this stage of the roll-out. 

Protection against serious illness and death are still incredibly high. It seems to be the efficacy against infection which is reducing slightly. However, it proves just how well vaccines are doing their job, that they are still incredibly powerful against the worst outcomes of the virus. 

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1 hour ago, Stokz said:

 

Interesting read above.

But why do you think UK is not following the Covid passport rule ?

Because Boris Johnson is a Tory Bellend who only cares about his Eton mates.

Campbell Newman, ffs

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45 minutes ago, wendybr said:

The article you're quoting there is largely based on an original article from April/May. This one.

Mounting evidence suggests COVID vaccines do reduce transmission. How does this work? (theconversation.com)

Much has changed since then.

So we have in the Covid reduces transmission corner we have

  1. Jennifer Juno

    Senior research fellow, The Peter Doherty Institute for Infection and Immunity

  2. index_eis.jpgAdam Wheatley

    Senior Research Fellow, Department of Microbiology and Immunology, The University of Melbourne

 

And in the "oh no it doesn't" corner we have

Campbell Newman (former premier of Queensland who lost his own seat) 

Eric Clapton

Ned Zelic

James Triosi

the guy off Coast

mmmm

I know which one I'm going with..

 

Yep, hand me the bottle of urine..

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

They have announced that they won't go ahead with it a few days ago.

Do you ever look at the politicians that are on your side of the debate on this, and wonder?

Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Craig Kelly, George Christiansen, Tony Abbott, Clive Palmer

All great intellectuals

Edited by StringerBellend
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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

They have announced that they won't go ahead with it a few days ago.

Does the Australian count as a mainstream newspaper? Personally I wouldn't wipe my bum on it, but I would concede it is a mainstream newspaper

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

They have announced that they won't go ahead with it a few days ago.

I’m happy with this. The UK are a bit ahead of us and we seem to be able to use their experience as our guide. Even opening up was fine for the vaccinated in the UK. Death rates dropped and are primarily confined to the unvaccinated. 
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/13/fully-vaccinated-people-account-for-12-of-englands-covid-19-deaths

 

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

The article you're quoting there is largely based on an original article from April/May. This one.

Mounting evidence suggests COVID vaccines do reduce transmission. How does this work? (theconversation.com)

Much has changed since then.

Ummmm…..not a lot has changed. Covid vaccines greatly reduce transmission. This study just published. 


https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-prevent-delta-transmission-yet-another-study-shows-15787


 

 

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1 hour ago, StringerBellend said:

Do you ever look at the politicians that are on your side of the debate on this, and wonder?

Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Craig Kelly, George Christiansen, Tony Abbott, Clive Palmer

All great intellectuals

This guy:

image.png.caa47e5fd7ea7ab953c70d702839a14e.png

Yeah, definitely seems intelligent and someone worth listening to on matters of health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Kelly_(politician) says he's a former furniture salesman which is clearly an amazing medical credential.

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1 hour ago, Cynth said:

I’m happy with this. The UK are a bit ahead of us and we seem to be able to use their experience as our guide. Even opening up was fine for the vaccinated in the UK. Death rates dropped and are primarily confined to the unvaccinated. 
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/13/fully-vaccinated-people-account-for-12-of-englands-covid-19-deaths

 

 

1 hour ago, Cynth said:

Ummmm…..not a lot has changed. Covid vaccines greatly reduce transmission. This study just published. 


https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-prevent-delta-transmission-yet-another-study-shows-15787


 

 

I'm not disputing any of those claims.

But they are temporary.

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3 minutes ago, wendybr said:

 

I'm not disputing any of those claims.

But they are temporary.

Temporary? The drop in death rate in the UK is temporary? The reduced risk of transmission that the vaccine affords is temporary? 
 

Huh? 

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1 hour ago, StringerBellend said:

Does the Australian count as a mainstream newspaper? Personally I wouldn't wipe my bum on it, but I would concede it is a mainstream newspaper

Not sure what you are saying there - but if you are questioning whether or not the UK is going ahead with vaccine passports, well...

Boris Johnson ditches UK's COVID-19 vaccine passport plan under pressure from his own party - ABC News

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12 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Temporary? The drop in death rate in the UK is temporary? The reduced risk of transmission that the vaccine affords is temporary? 
 

Huh? 

AZ might be proving to be more effective for longer than Pfizer - probably because of the longer gap between doses. Moderna too - somewhat.

But waning efficacy of the 2 MRNA vaccines isn't being disputed - hence the boosters. I think they are talking along the same lines with AZ - so that the Health care workers (who were vaccinated in March) will need boosters soon - before they head into Winter.

Therefore...the vaccines are proving to have an unquestionable effect - but a short term effect. I don't think anyone is disputing that OS.

The other thing to bear in mind is that they have just come out of Summer. Last Summer, the Covid issue faded greatly.

What happens as they head back into Winter will be telling. Hopefully, it won't be anything like last Winter. It certainly shouldn't be.

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So i heard on Radio National on the way home tonight that Perrottet was going to meet the Mayor of Cumberland Council. Apparently,  Perrottet told him on telephone call that he didn't support the lockdown and curfews.

Then, low and behold, Berejiklian decided to meet all the Mayors of the LGAs of concern on a zoom call after resisting any meeting.

So, it would appear that the real reason Berejiklian has gone into hiding is to shore up support in the NSW Parliamentary Liberal Party.

 

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30 minutes ago, wendybr said:

AZ might be proving to be more effective for longer than Pfizer - probably because of the longer gap between doses. Moderna too - somewhat.

But waning efficacy of the 2 MRNA vaccines isn't being disputed - hence the boosters. I think they are talking along the same lines with AZ - so that the Health care workers (who were vaccinated in March) will need boosters soon - before they head into Winter.

Therefore...the vaccines are proving to have an unquestionable effect - but a short term effect. I don't think anyone is disputing that OS.

The other thing to bear in mind is that they have just come out of Summer. Last Summer, the Covid issue faded greatly.

What happens as they head back into Winter will be telling. Hopefully, it won't be anything like last Winter. It certainly shouldn't be.

Oh yes of course, we may need a booster. We don’t know yet. At this stage the science suggests that the immunocompromised and elderly will need it. Time will tell. But I thought we were talking about transmission??? 

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5 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Oh yes of course, we may need a booster. We don’t know yet. At this stage the science suggests that the immunocompromised and elderly will need it. Time will tell. But I thought we were talking about transmission??? 

Nope - I wasn't - just general, long term efficacy, from me. A way out of the mess.

Maybe Stokz was discussing that? :unknw:

 

But yes - time will tell.

:):)

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1 minute ago, Cynth said:

:unknw:

Being vaccinated doesn't stop you getting it, doesn't stop you transmitting it, doesn't stop you from being hospitalised, and doesn't stop you dying of Covid. 

But I don't dispute that the likelihood of all of those is reduced significantly - for a few months.

I actually suspect that exactly the same people who were at risk of dying from Covid (or more likely with it) without the vaccine, are largely the same group of people who may still die with the vaccine.  :unknw:

 

Anyway...

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38 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Being vaccinated doesn't stop you getting it, doesn't stop you transmitting it, doesn't stop you from being hospitalised, and doesn't stop you dying of Covid. 

But I don't dispute that the likelihood of all of those is reduced significantly - for a few months.

I actually suspect that exactly the same people who were at risk of dying from Covid (or more likely with it) without the vaccine, are largely the same group of people who may still die with the vaccine.  :unknw:

 

Anyway...

The Covid vaccines make it ten times less likely you will get the virus, which reduces significantly your chances of transmitting it, being hospitalised by it and dying from it. In fact a 90% reduction in hospitalisation and death. Pretty good performance for a vaccine. 
 

The effectiveness of the vaccine is long term with some reduction in stopping people’s contracting the virus  somewhat for immunocompromised people after 6-8 months. The rest like I said is still unknown. 
 

Your suspicions about who dies from the vaccine are completely and utterly unfounded. Those at risk of dying from the virus are the elderly, those  with immunocompromise, those who have obesity, underlying conditions, the unvaccinated and sometimes random unluckiness as we have seen even here in Sydney with young, healthy people dying. 
 

Details matter. 

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

Not sure what you are saying there - but if you are questioning whether or not the UK is going ahead with vaccine passports, well...

Boris Johnson ditches UK's COVID-19 vaccine passport plan under pressure from his own party - ABC News

No I'm not questioning if the UK is going ahead or not, they aren't.

Which isn't surprising given Britain is governed by right wing Tory government ran by a bunch of men from Eton and the Bullingdon Club.

My point was that you repeatedly claim that the mainstream media is not covering the counter view, yet you then later post an article by a right wing politician, in a major (right wing) Australian newspaper, presenting this counter view (that you claim the mainstream media don't present). You then follow it up with article from the Australian National Broadcaster.  So clearly the mainstream media a covering it.

So this paranoid view you have developed that your alt-right brave truth seekers are being suppressed by the main stream media doesn't really hold, particularly in a country where the only mainstream national newspaper is ran by right wing loons, and in some states the only newspapers in print are owned by right wing loons. 

Back to the UK and Boris.

I'm not sure why you would use Boris Johnson and his handling of the COVID situation as being the benchmark. His handling of the whole thing has been dreadful, this is the guy who tried for herd immunity at the start resulting in a lot of people getting sick and dying. 

Not only is a dreadful prime minister but he is a dreadful human being.

The only reason Britain is so far advanced in its vaccine rollout is the work of the NHS, which he has tried repeatedly to dismantle and the amazing doctors and nurses who he has repeatedly voted against giving a pay rise to.

Lets not hold Boris f***ing Johnson up as being about anything other than his own and his posh mates benefit..

Boris Johnson... ffs

 

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57 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Being vaccinated doesn't stop you getting it, doesn't stop you transmitting it, doesn't stop you from being hospitalised, and doesn't stop you dying of Covid. 

But I don't dispute that the likelihood of all of those is reduced significantly - for a few months.

I actually suspect that exactly the same people who were at risk of dying from Covid (or more likely with it) without the vaccine, are largely the same group of people who may still die with the vaccine.  :unknw:

 

Anyway...

That's all total rubbish you can suspect and post emojis all you want but none of that is backed up by the medical research.

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1 hour ago, wendybr said:

Being vaccinated doesn't stop you getting it, doesn't stop you transmitting it, doesn't stop you from being hospitalised, and doesn't stop you dying of Covid. 

But I don't dispute that the likelihood of all of those is reduced significantly - for a few months.

I actually suspect that exactly the same people who were at risk of dying from Covid (or more likely with it) without the vaccine, are largely the same group of people who may still die with the vaccine.  :unknw:

 

Anyway...

You mean like how we get the flu shot every year? Does that mean we just give up and not vaccinate because I have to get another flu shot next year?

2 hours ago, Paul01 said:

So i heard on Radio National on the way home tonight that Perrottet was going to meet the Mayor of Cumberland Council. Apparently,  Perrottet told him on telephone call that he didn't support the lockdown and curfews.

Then, low and behold, Berejiklian decided to meet all the Mayors of the LGAs of concern on a zoom call after resisting any meeting.

So, it would appear that the real reason Berejiklian has gone into hiding is to shore up support in the NSW Parliamentary Liberal Party.

 

Well duh, it's so obviously politics

Penrith LGA, part of an LNP electorate with the dickhead Stuart Ayres, has only certain suburbs in lockdown.

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10 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

No I'm not questioning if the UK is going ahead or not, they aren't.

Which isn't surprising given Britain is governed by right wing Tory government ran by a bunch of men from Eton and the Bullingdon Club.

My point was that you repeatedly claim that the mainstream media is not covering the counter view, yet you then later post an article by a right wing politician, in a major (right wing) Australian newspaper, presenting this counter view (that you claim the mainstream media don't present). You then follow it up with article from the Australian National Broadcaster.  So clearly the mainstream media a covering it.

So this paranoid view you have developed that your alt-right brave truth seekers are being suppressed by the main stream media doesn't really hold, particularly in a country where the only mainstream national newspaper is ran by right wing loons, and in some states the only newspapers in print are owned by right wing loons. 

Back to the UK and Boris.

I'm not sure why you would use Boris Johnson and his handling of the COVID situation as being the benchmark. His handling of the whole thing has been dreadful, this is the guy who tried for herd immunity at the start resulting in a lot of people getting sick and dying. 

Not only is a dreadful prime minister but he is a dreadful human being.

The only reason Britain is so far advanced in its vaccine rollout is the work of the NHS, which he has tried repeatedly to dismantle and the amazing doctors and nurses who he has repeatedly voted against giving a pay rise to.

Lets not hold Boris f***ing Johnson up as being about anything other than his own and his posh mates benefit..

Boris Johnson... ffs

 

"major right wing newspaper"??

That first item I linked was what Jess' article was based on (as stated at the end of her article) - so I linked the original article, and I merely pointed out that the original was published in April - so the stats it was claiming were some months out of date.

After that, I just googled "UK vaccine passport" - the ABC article came up first -  so I linked it.

I have no idea whether BJ (I don't disagree with anything you say there about him or his govt) could make that decision on his own??

I wouldn't have thought so - but all I know is that they aren't going ahead with it. Apparently.

Here, it will be challenged in the Supreme Court (a hearing on the 30th Seotember, I think). 50,000 people watched a live streamof the initial hearing, apparently. 

And a substantial number of Church leaders and parishioners have come out against it also. Not sure if that has been published here at all.

Also,  I don't know whether Gladys contradicted it, but Barillaro let slip somewhere (I think yesterday) that the unvaxxed/Untouchables would be in exile for 3 weeks or so. But I didn't follow up on that.

My gut feeling is that the threat of home detention (almost) for the unvaxxed is just a way of forcing many to relent, as quickly as possible.

But again, time will tell.

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26 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

You mean like how we get the flu shot every year? Does that mean we just give up and not vaccinate because I have to get another flu shot next year?

No - not at all like how we get a flu shot every year.

Last I heard, with the Covid vaccines, it might be every 5-7 months that people would need a booster.

I do get a flu shot every year - no worries. It's a traditional vaccine - so I have no problem with that. 

These aren't.

Besides, people are not threatened with the loss of their jobs, and a deprivation of their freedom of movement if they don't get it. And I don't think anything like a majority of people do get it.

It's not the same.

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24 minutes ago, wendybr said:

I do get a flu shot every year - no worries. It's a traditional vaccine - so I have no problem with that. 

 

Why every year. ?  Shouldn't it stop you from getting the flu......ever again ?  Well, it doesn't because the flu virus mutates. Just as covid does. 

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