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16 minutes ago, Cynth said:

You wanna pay more taxes? We spend now around 15% GDP on healthcare as opposed to a lot less proportionally just 20 years ago. Besides, prevention is better than cure wouldn’t you say? 

And so much tax paid towards health care here and yet so much of it is not free when you need it. Plus the private cover we pay.

Unlike in the UK where you pay your tax but the principle of the NHS is that the services are free for all. 

I never paid for a dentist in my life before I came here. Never paid a cent in private cover.

Edited by Smoggy
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55 minutes ago, Stokz said:

I don't get this point - if we are at 80% double vaxxed, and the health system is still being overwhelmed? 

1. Are the vaccines working ?

2. Will pushing the vax rate to  90% make any difference ?

So your point regarding vax passports being used so that the health system doesn't get over run doesn't make sense.  Once you hit your threshold, at the double vaxxed % (whatever the number is) that means you can live with the virus, as such why do you need the vax passport.

Sure enough for international travel but domestically it just doesn't make sense.

No, you don't, and with all due respect, that is quite astonishing. Where have you been the last 18 months??

Last year NSW government feared that up to 25,000 people could die within 12 months because of covid in NSW alone, hence the lockdowns. We have also been told that, even if 80% of the adult population is vaccinated, up to 25000 Australians will lose their lives as a consequence, with more than a quarter of a million long COVID cases in the pipeline.

At this point in time, COVID vaccination is risk management, not cure. If you are looking for cure you drink piss, bleach, swallow ivermectin, or pray. It is encouraging that the doubling of infections every ten days is now not the case any longer, it appears that the tide has turned due to the increasing vaccination rate.

Once we have enough anti bodies in the entire population (aka herd immunity), then we can assume that another outbreak will not trigger another major lockdown. It would be more like a flu outbreak, the risk will be manageable. What is that vaccination target?figure? It has been suggested that it is save enough to open up once 70% of the adult population have received a single jab. Then there are those who say it has to be 90% double jab of the population older than 12. That is the spectrum between wishful thinking and aiming for perfection. Take your pick. 

From a risk management perspective, at this stage our vaccination rate is so low and inconsistent across the nation that opening up can only happen for the vaccinated. That's the message Auntie Gladys has been pumping since Delta escaped Sydney. Some form of vaccination evidence would then be required to keep the un-vaccinated at bay/home/isolated (aka vax passport).

Once we achieve vaccination numbers like Denmark and have enough hospital beds to deal with outbreaks of new variants, then neither restrictions nor vaccination evidence should be required. That's what we are all hoping for.

Have a lot at the section "Percentage of the population fully vaccinated by country" in the link below. Look for the red bit that says Australia. It gives you an idea just how far we are behind. Yours sincerely: Scott "its not a race" Morrison.

At this point we are looking at 80% double dose of the national population 16 years and older some time in November/December.  If they add the 12-16 year olds to the target then it will be some time early next year. If they bump up the target to 90% it will be later in 2022. Lockdown measures and restriction will flow from there.

It's actually quite simple, really.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-interactive/2021/sep/15/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-australia-vaccination-rate-progress-how-many-people-vaccinated-percent-tracker-australian-states-number-total-daily-live-data-stats-updates-news-schedule-tracking-chart-percentage-new-cases-today

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stokz said:

I don't get this point - if we are at 80% double vaxxed, and the health system is still being overwhelmed? 

1. Are the vaccines working ?

2. Will pushing the vax rate to  90% make any difference ?

So your point regarding vax passports being used so that the health system doesn't get over run doesn't make sense.  Once you hit your threshold, at the double vaxxed % (whatever the number is) that means you can live with the virus, as such why do you need the vax passport.

Sure enough for international travel but domestically it just doesn't make sense.

It's not as simple as that.  80% is the government, rightly or wrongly, taking a risk based approach to opening up. At 80% you still have 20% not vaccinated that's quite a lot, who are still open to the virus so your options. If that 20% have a high infection rate (which is likely if we lift restrictions on them) then that's enough to overwhelm hospitals. Add into that 80% is an average across the state so, in some areas it will be higher than 80% (eetswa) in other areas especially in remote it will be under 80% (by quite a bit), lets say those people all go out, and get it that will overload the local hospital (capacity for hospitals isn't something that you can just move around). 

So they either

a) Don't lift at 80%, but set the threshold higher, like wait until 90% or more, and also ensure it is even (no idea how you could even do that)

b) Keep the threshold at 805 but apply the same restrictions to everyone vaccinated or not, so you slow the rate of spread for the 20% but also annoy the 80%

c) You lift at the 80% threshold but you focus your restrictions on the 20%, who now most at risk. With the bonus of encouraging the 20% to join the 80% and lift the overall number

d) All drink our own wee

 

So to answer your questions

1. Are the vaccines working ?    -  yes of course it is but for it to work well you have to take it, so it works for the 80% but not the 20% (who are enough to cause mayhem)

2. Will pushing the vax rate to  90% make any difference ? - yes, 10% will cause less mayhem 

For domestic travel you don't want the high risk 20% moving around spreading the virus amongst themselves, and to the kids who aren't in either the 80 or the 20 number or even to the 80% as the vaccine isn't 100% effective

Surely as a libertarian type, you are more down with option c) than a) or b), i.e. if you choose to get vaccinated you get the benefits and if you don't you bare the consequence?

 

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48 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

And so much tax paid towards health care here and yet so much of it is not free when you need it. Plus the private cover we pay.

Unlike in the UK where you pay your tax but the principle of the NHS is that the services are free for all. 

I never paid for a dentist in my life before I came here. Never paid a cent in private cover.

If Boris gets his way, that will be a thing of the past

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16 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

If Boris gets his way, that will be a thing of the past

Nahhh. NHS is sacred territory in the UK, it would be political suicide. The NHS even formed a major part of the London 2012 opening Olympic ceremony lol

Edited by Smoggy
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1 hour ago, Smoggy said:

And so much tax paid towards health care here and yet so much of it is not free when you need it. Plus the private cover we pay.

Unlike in the UK where you pay your tax but the principle of the NHS is that the services are free for all. 

I never paid for a dentist in my life before I came here. Never paid a cent in private cover.

Lol and yet an NHS system here in Australia would have the Libs going berserk at all the socialism! 

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15 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Nahhh. NHS is sacred territory in the UK, it would be political suicide. The NHS even formed a major part of the London 2012 opening Olympic ceremony lol

True. But I thought the plan was that when Britain left the EU, they would sign a special free trade deal with the US.

My understanding was that the US had a condition that the UK must allow American finance companies to sell private health insurance and therefore start the quasi privatisation.

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1 hour ago, Stokz said:

The way some of you guys talk, would make me think we live in a 3rd world country with their medical systems.

So let me get this straight, 4.6million people scattered all over Australia, the 20% unvaxxed (of which probably a big number would be under 40, so their chances of Covid death are already very low) could cause serious issues to the health system, yet somehow Europe managed 10-30K cases a day with no vaccine. 

Our health system runs at almost full capacity a lot of the time. It’s not third world, it’s an excellent system really but the government would need to make judgements on vax passports and reducing restrictions that maintains the health system at a level it would cope at. Not sure what the modelling says around what number of cases constitutes an overload because they wouldn’t necessarily be spread all over the country, but affect certain areas endemically. 

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36 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Nahhh. NHS is sacred territory in the UK, it would be political suicide. The NHS even formed a major part of the London 2012 opening Olympic ceremony lol

They have continually voted against pay rises for staff, they reduce funding. It's the usual trick, run down the public entity to the point where it ceases to function then tout privatisation as the saviour.

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2 hours ago, Stokz said:

The way some of you guys talk, would make me think we live in a 3rd world country with their medical systems.

So let me get this straight, 4.6million people scattered all over Australia, the 20% unvaxxed (of which probably a big number would be under 40, so their chances of Covid death are already very low) could cause serious issues to the health system, yet somehow Europe managed 10-30K cases a day with no vaccine. 

You don't seem to quite appreciate the concept of a pandemic.

The quality of the health care services is not the issue, it will not necessarily determine the number of people dying because of COVID. The issue is how many need care at the same time, for how long, at what intensity, and what that means for existing resources (material and - more important - people/carers/nurses/doctors).

Have a look at the comparison of ICU bed comparison from last year. You will notice that Spain, France, and Italy at that time had more ICU beds than Australia. Not exactly third world countries, and yet they were totally overwhelmed when the original version of COVID hit 18 months ago.

That's why we locked down last year, that's why we locked down this year.

https://www.q-bital.com/news-and-events/how-does-australias-icu-capacity-compare/

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54 minutes ago, FCB said:

You don't seem to quite appreciate the concept of a pandemic.

The quality of the health care services is not the issue, it will not necessarily determine the number of people dying because of COVID. The issue is how many need care at the same time, for how long, at what intensity, and what that means for existing resources (material and - more important - people/carers/nurses/doctors).

Have a look at the comparison of ICU bed comparison from last year. You will notice that Spain, France, and Italy at that time had more ICU beds than Australia. Not exactly third world countries, and yet they were totally overwhelmed when the original version of COVID hit 18 months ago.

That's why we locked down last year, that's why we locked down this year.

https://www.q-bital.com/news-and-events/how-does-australias-icu-capacity-compare/

Considering the graph shows that the US has more ICU beds per 100k people by far, it really tells you the extent of the problem in the US that their unvaccinated State hospitals are buckling. 

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2 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

They have continually voted against pay rises for staff, they reduce funding. It's the usual trick, run down the public entity to the point where it ceases to function then tout privatisation as the saviour.

Nah

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2 hours ago, pseudonym said:

True. But I thought the plan was that when Britain left the EU, they would sign a special free trade deal with the US.

My understanding was that the US had a condition that the UK must allow American finance companies to sell private health insurance and therefore start the quasi privatisation.

Nah

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23 hours ago, wendybr said:

No - not at all like how we get a flu shot every year.

Last I heard, with the Covid vaccines, it might be every 5-7 months that people would need a booster.

I do get a flu shot every year - no worries. It's a traditional vaccine - so I have no problem with that. 

These aren't.

Besides, people are not threatened with the loss of their jobs, and a deprivation of their freedom of movement if they don't get it. And I don't think anything like a majority of people do get it.

It's not the same.

The flu vaccine each year is literally scientists guessing what they think the four top strains will be and then putting that in a vaccine. That's why the flu shot is called the QUADrivalent flu vaccine:

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/2021-seasonal-influenza-vaccines

It literally says what they've guessed the strains to be:

  • an A/Victoria/2570/2019 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus;
  • an A/Hong Kong/2671/2019 (H3N2)-like virus;
  • a B/Washington/02/2019 (B/Victoria lineage)-like virus; and
  • a B/Phuket/3073/2013 (B/Yamagata lineage)-like virus.

 

But yes, the flu shot does not come with threatening job losses and the like. However, the flu is not a pandemic.

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2 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

The flu vaccine each year is literally scientists guessing what they think the four top strains will be and then putting that in a vaccine. That's why the flu shot is called the QUADrivalent flu vaccine:

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/2021-seasonal-influenza-vaccines

It literally says what they've guessed the strains to be:

  • an A/Victoria/2570/2019 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus;
  • an A/Hong Kong/2671/2019 (H3N2)-like virus;
  • a B/Washington/02/2019 (B/Victoria lineage)-like virus; and
  • a B/Phuket/3073/2013 (B/Yamagata lineage)-like virus.

 

But yes, the flu shot does not come with threatening job losses and the like. However, the flu is not a pandemic.

Nicely said

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7 hours ago, Cynth said:

You wanna pay more taxes? We spend now around 15% GDP on healthcare as opposed to a lot less proportionally just 20 years ago. Besides, prevention is better than cure wouldn’t you say? 

I would actually welcome paying more taxes.

Some of the infrastructure in this state is in dire need of improvement, like especially funding for schools and hospitals.

But instead the LNP wanna give everyone tax cuts although we were apparently in a "debt and deficit crisis" up until the moment they got elected and then after that the level of debt was suddenly all fine and dandy.

I'll tell everyone now exactly what I did with my tax cuts: I put it straight into the stock market. People more well-off than I am I'm sure would've done the same thing.

It's crap policy like "LNP tax cuts for everyone (but skewed more for the higher income owners)" that makes the rich get richer. I know others aren't that privileged in that they would've spent the tax cut money on necessary items, but I would have much preferred it spent on welfare payments for the disadvantaged or improving state services.

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And looks like Singapore is reassessing the 80%

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/singapore-reports-biggest-spike-in-covid-cases-in-a-year-despite-81-vaccination-rate?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

As to boosters vaccinations, as i said earlier, CSL should develop a wholly inactivated Covid-19 vaccine. This could be used as the booster and will increase antibodies against the entire virus.

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1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

And looks like Singapore is reassessing the 80%

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/singapore-reports-biggest-spike-in-covid-cases-in-a-year-despite-81-vaccination-rate?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

As to boosters vaccinations, as i said earlier, CSL should develop a wholly inactivated Covid-19 vaccine. This could be used as the booster and will increase antibodies against the entire virus.

Yes to your last point.

What a joke it's becoming.

 

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11 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Yes to you last point.

What a joke it's becoming.

The higher the vaccination rate, the faster the cases grow.

You really don't half talk some rubbish 

What are you taking about? Are you now linking vaccination rates to a growth in cases?

 

Edited by StringerBellend
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1 hour ago, Paul01 said:

As to boosters vaccinations, as i said earlier, CSL should develop a wholly inactivated Covid-19 vaccine. This could be used as the booster and will increase antibodies against the entire virus.

My reading of the TGA Website suggests that Novavax has made a submission to the TGA??

https://www.tga.gov.au/covid-19-vaccines-undergoing-evaluation

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3 minutes ago, wendybr said:

My reading of the TGA Website suggests that Novavax has made a submission to the TGA??

Can't link it...but is that your reading Paul...when you get a chance to look.

The data on Novavax appears to be good but they cannot manufacture it in the quantities needed for a pandemic.

The bigger problem is that the manufacturer is having issues around the standard of manufacture required for an invasive product (a sterile intramuscular injection) according the FDA (their inspectors are trained by the FBI!)

I seem to remember that CSL had issues with what is known as the yield (total quantity of each batch made) when they first started manufacturing the Astra-Zeneca vaccine. So there were early supply problems for AZ here.

CSL would not have a problem meeting the standard required for manufacture and supply of vaccines for Australia and the world (with the possible exception of export to the USA)

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I know they're having manufacturing issues.

I didn't actually think they'd applied for approval in the US yet, and certainly didn't think they'd applied here...but they must've, I think.

Still not whole inactivated virus  but at least it's a traditional vaccine.

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7 hours ago, Unlimited said:

I would actually welcome paying more taxes.

Some of the infrastructure in this state is in dire need of improvement, like especially funding for schools and hospitals.

But instead the LNP wanna give everyone tax cuts although we were apparently in a "debt and deficit crisis" up until the moment they got elected and then after that the level of debt was suddenly all fine and dandy.

I'll tell everyone now exactly what I did with my tax cuts: I put it straight into the stock market. People more well-off than I am I'm sure would've done the same thing.

It's crap policy like "LNP tax cuts for everyone (but skewed more for the higher income owners)" that makes the rich get richer. I know others aren't that privileged in that they would've spent the tax cut money on necessary items, but I would have much preferred it spent on welfare payments for the disadvantaged or improving state services.

You can pay more tax by asking your employer to complete an upwards variation to your tax deductions so you pay more tax  each fortnight / weekly, then at the end of the financial year when completing your tax return don't claim any tax deductions. Bingo you pay more tax , but surely you would know that.

Bear in mind that the income tax goes to the Federal government and schools and hospitals are state responsibilities. But ScoMo will love you.

You also need to remember that you are a young single guy rolling in cash at the moment. When you find the love of your life have a few kids , a mortgage , education costs , food and clothing etc , see if you want to pay more tax then ! But good idea putting tax money into shares , alternatively salary sacrifice into superannuation. 

A final point , how is that pot hole ? You realise that it's Council funded and not from Federal Tax ?. So you would need tp pay more council rates. My advice , drive around the bloody pothole.

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8 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

You really don't half talk some rubbish 

What are you taking about? Are you now linking vaccination rates to a growth in cases?

 

What??

Israel's cases were skyrocketing before they scrambled for their 3rd booster jab. The third of booster jabs X Infinity there.

UK - all in the clear now, are they?

Bring in measures soon or risk 7,000 daily Covid hospitalisations, Sage warns | Coronavirus | The Guardian

Singapore... yep, going swimmingly there.

Singapore reports worst daily Covid case tally in more than a year | Singapore | The Guardian

Iceland - OK a month ago - despite the propaganda piece (Youtube clip) posted here a while back, with Pfizer in the credits in small print. They've probably started triple jabbing there now.

RACGP - COVID surges in one of world’s most vaccinated nations

I get it that the deaths are down, but the hospitals are still under pressure in these highly vaccinated places. 

I can't be bothered going further, but I think that it might be found that ultimately, masks and social distancing measures rather than jabs twice a year, are what makes the biggest difference in managing the pandemic.

 

Anyway...Pfizer and Merck working on treatments - hopefully early onset treatments, which would make the world of difference.

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16 hours ago, FCB said:

No, you don't, and with all due respect, that is quite astonishing. Where have you been the last 18 months??

Last year NSW government feared that up to 25,000 people could die within 12 months because of covid in NSW alone, hence the lockdowns. We have also been told that, even if 80% of the adult population is vaccinated, up to 25000 Australians will lose their lives as a consequence, with more than a quarter of a million long COVID cases in the pipeline.

At this point in time, COVID vaccination is risk management, not cure. If you are looking for cure you drink piss, bleach, swallow ivermectin, or pray. It is encouraging that the doubling of infections every ten days is now not the case any longer, it appears that the tide has turned due to the increasing vaccination rate.

Once we have enough anti bodies in the entire population (aka herd immunity), then we can assume that another outbreak will not trigger another major lockdown. It would be more like a flu outbreak, the risk will be manageable. What is that vaccination target?figure? It has been suggested that it is save enough to open up once 70% of the adult population have received a single jab. Then there are those who say it has to be 90% double jab of the population older than 12. That is the spectrum between wishful thinking and aiming for perfection. Take your pick. 

From a risk management perspective, at this stage our vaccination rate is so low and inconsistent across the nation that opening up can only happen for the vaccinated. That's the message Auntie Gladys has been pumping since Delta escaped Sydney. Some form of vaccination evidence would then be required to keep the un-vaccinated at bay/home/isolated (aka vax passport).

Once we achieve vaccination numbers like Denmark and have enough hospital beds to deal with outbreaks of new variants, then neither restrictions nor vaccination evidence should be required. That's what we are all hoping for.

Have a lot at the section "Percentage of the population fully vaccinated by country" in the link below. Look for the red bit that says Australia. It gives you an idea just how far we are behind. Yours sincerely: Scott "its not a race" Morrison.

At this point we are looking at 80% double dose of the national population 16 years and older some time in November/December.  If they add the 12-16 year olds to the target then it will be some time early next year. If they bump up the target to 90% it will be later in 2022. Lockdown measures and restriction will flow from there.

It's actually quite simple, really.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-interactive/2021/sep/15/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-australia-vaccination-rate-progress-how-many-people-vaccinated-percent-tracker-australian-states-number-total-daily-live-data-stats-updates-news-schedule-tracking-chart-percentage-new-cases-today

 

 

 

You really like to quote models that predict that the worse possible scenarios. How many of those expert models have proven right? Try a more realistic scenario. 

 

 

Yes I do get why lockdowns are required. Remember when they all said, gives 2 weeks to flatten the curve so our hospitals can be setup. How is it 18months into a pandemic, we haven't prepared ourselves with ICUs beds etc for a major outbreak.

Who are you to say, we need 80% of 12+ or 90% of total population? You say trust the experts, if they are advocating for the 80% of 16+ than why are you saying we need more.

Funny how Barilaro came out and said at 80% unvaxxed would be let in... which probably was the 80% plan and the media went on the attack and then auntie Gladdy had to go on the front foot the next day to cause doubt to that.  If he is right, then what is the point of the Vax passport.

In hindsight definitely should of been a race, but look at the World's best president TM Jacinda, what's NZ vax rate - 36%. Say what you want countries that didn't have significant outbreaks weren't in any rush to get vaccinated. NSW now has a bigger first dose rate than New York. And unfortunately, our vaccination rate would be no where it is now, without this outbreak and lockdown.

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