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Why does a person in France being infected in mid-December mean that China "knew" about it being a special type of virus? Those two points don't have a causal connection.

The scientific history of the virus thus far, is that in late November the virus passed from one animal (probably a bat) to another animal and from there to humans.

By mid-December a cluster of cases began at the Wuhan seafood market and by the end of December a doctor with experience with SARS believed a similar disease was happening again. On December 31 the Chinese government informed the World Health Organisation and begun taking further steps. The "doctor who told the world" was actually talking in a private wechat (Chinese facebook basically) group and had his posts leaked by someone else on the same day that WHO were informed, based on the work the other Doctor with SARS experience did.

Even with that timeline, it still took until 10 January for the first confirmed case of death because of the virus and less than 50 infections. No country in the world would have gone in an immediately full lockdown for that (we'd be doing full lockdowns for the regular common flu if that were the case). On 22 January the Government locked down Wuhan with only 17 deaths and 550 cases reported. As a comparison, the United States has ~100 people killed per day from gun deaths (murders, suicides, accidents etc).

The rest of the world didn't even begin lockdowns/banning gatherings until the middle of March. The entire month of February came and went without any lockdowns or public gathering bans. Most of the airline/travel bans were scattershot, excluded places like Taiwan & Hong Kong, as well as including exemptions for certain groups, while requiring quarantine. Australia didn't start anything until 20th March for example.

The "China bad, China created the virus, China let it out from their Wuhan lab, China did it deliberately, China told people to spread it to the West" conspiracy/propaganda narrative is being driven to help protect conservative Governments in Australia, the US and the UK because of their mediocre (and in the US, abysmal) reactions to it.

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Posted (edited)

Politicians will play to their own local/national political base...if it includes the odd bit of dog whistling/xenophobia/subtle racism.....they don't care as long as the plebs vote for them. I have no doubt that if the Ruby Princess had happened under the ALP the sreaming would be endless from A) the press and B) the opposition.

Edited by sonar

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1 hour ago, sonar said:

Politicians will play to their own local/national political base...if it includes the odd bit of dog whistling/xenophobia/subtle racism.....they don't care as long as the plebs vote for them. I have no doubt that if the Ruby Princess had happened under the ALP the sreaming would be endless from A) the press and B) the opposition.

Can you imagine what the shock jocks and Murdoch press would be saying? They'd be dining out on this for 10 years.

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Shades of the Spanish Flu if this article is true. In the second wave of the Spanish, more died than in the first wave.

Second coronavirus strain 'more contagious', new research finds http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-06/new-coronavirus-covid19-strain-mutation-hits-vaccine-research/12218834

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21 minutes ago, Carns said:

Can you imagine what the shock jocks and Murdoch press would be saying? They'd be dining out on this for 10 years.

Just like on the Insulation Scheme and the Schools!

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23 minutes ago, Carns said:

Can you imagine what the shock jocks and Murdoch press would be saying? They'd be dining out on this for 10 years.

Aren't most of the shock jocks still saying it's no worse than the flu?

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1 hour ago, MartinTyler said:

Aren't most of the shock jocks still saying it's no worse than the flu?

Well, 1 of them is.

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EXTJ_Q-UcAITLcH.jpg

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19 hours ago, mack said:

Why does a person in France being infected in mid-December mean that China "knew" about it being a special type of virus? Those two points don't have a causal connection.

The scientific history of the virus thus far, is that in late November the virus passed from one animal (probably a bat) to another animal and from there to humans.

By mid-December a cluster of cases began at the Wuhan seafood market and by the end of December a doctor with experience with SARS believed a similar disease was happening again. On December 31 the Chinese government informed the World Health Organisation and begun taking further steps. The "doctor who told the world" was actually talking in a private wechat (Chinese facebook basically) group and had his posts leaked by someone else on the same day that WHO were informed, based on the work the other Doctor with SARS experience did.

Even with that timeline, it still took until 10 January for the first confirmed case of death because of the virus and less than 50 infections. No country in the world would have gone in an immediately full lockdown for that (we'd be doing full lockdowns for the regular common flu if that were the case). On 22 January the Government locked down Wuhan with only 17 deaths and 550 cases reported. As a comparison, the United States has ~100 people killed per day from gun deaths (murders, suicides, accidents etc).

The rest of the world didn't even begin lockdowns/banning gatherings until the middle of March. The entire month of February came and went without any lockdowns or public gathering bans. Most of the airline/travel bans were scattershot, excluded places like Taiwan & Hong Kong, as well as including exemptions for certain groups, while requiring quarantine. Australia didn't start anything until 20th March for example.

The "China bad, China created the virus, China let it out from their Wuhan lab, China did it deliberately, China told people to spread it to the West" conspiracy/propaganda narrative is being driven to help protect conservative Governments in Australia, the US and the UK because of their mediocre (and in the US, abysmal) reactions to it.

Chill

Did I even suggest it came from a Chinese Lab, in fact most aside from the White House PR machine say it did not ...

The answer to when China actually knew about it interesting and unknown to an actual date... and given their governments it will never be known.

On the France case... if its in France in December then you can logically assume it was also in China and logic also says it was more than a single person.

Leaving all that aside for a bit.... the reaction by the Chinese government to early release of information and providing warnings was at best poor, the cruel would say a cover up...

In fact Europe & the US.... and China all failed their populations .... as I see it maybe a dozen countries at best have handled this well.... and they are all in populations say smallish with South Korea, Taiwan, Australia, Thailand, NZ and some Middle Eastern countries [BTW leaving out countries where testing is very small as good]...

Almost a coalition of the competent ... 

However to assume anything other than China has been very secretive about their position IMO flies in the face of logic... 

In closing saying China bad, does not say US good... its degrees of badness ... I would argue the US's inability to come anywhere a national policy and the hand outs to corporations instead of people boarders on a revolution in time...  

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Get ready for Scumbo to ramp up his rhetoric on downloading the APP.

He won't want to be second to level 2 restrictions behind Jacinda Adern. 

Coronavirus update: Jacinda Ardern reveals what 'alert level two' could look like http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-07/coronavirus-update-australia-covid19-dutton-flu-shots-nz-ardern/12221218

 

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14 hours ago, sonar said:

EXTJ_Q-UcAITLcH.jpg

That'll be me next week - except I'll need a ladder to reach the 2nd storey!  :lol::lol:

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This post blew me away it was a comment on New York Times article... Brilliant, Scary, Frightening ...

 

Almost every state has legal tools to crack down on armed militias under laws that prevent the formation of private paramilitaries that are not answerable to civil authorities. Such groups cannot falsely assume police or military roles and are not allowed to provide military training to prepare members for civil disorders. But when heavily armed protesters show up in formation at rallies, they certainly flout these laws.

Is this brazen display of force about the right to own firearms or the right to make armed threats for political purposes? Just asking, because the latter is not a “right” that can be equally asserted. The protests are purportedly about reopening America. A parallel goal is realignment — using the Second Amendment to conduct regular and routine shows of force to intimidate elected officials into enacting a political agenda.

Accepting the display of firearms at protests by some and not others means that we must also accept that some are rewarded with a kind of special citizenship that allows them to be seen as patriotic instead of threatening, and aggrieved instead of aggressive.

If we accept this as normal, it means the country collectively is shrugging its shoulders and co-signing a skewed social contract, in which white-nationalist groups grow in size and influence, as threats against politicians and journalists escalate, and as gun violence and mass shootings continue to rise.

Accepting this increasingly brazen display of guns as normal means an armed political movement is flourishing outside the guardrails of our political system.

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8 hours ago, wendybr said:

That'll be me next week - except I'll need a ladder to reach the 2nd storey!  :lol::lol:

Or abseil from the roof.

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10 hours ago, wendybr said:

That'll be me next week - except I'll need a ladder to reach the 2nd storey!  :lol::lol:

This would be more engaging and allow some freedom of movement. Perhaps dressing up like these gents would complete the look (yes, you can use faux fur ;))

stiltshephers.jpg

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that photo should be in the Caption Competition section

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Just a couple of thoughts this morning:

1) Where would we be had the Palmer party held the balance of power at the last Election and big Clive installed as PM?

2) With the more successful nations such as ourselves, NZ and South Korea (and whoever else is in this new discussion group) starting the recovery process and their economies opening up again, have the US and the UK jumped the gun with their recent announcements of opening up? Strikes me that both of these have made a complete hash of their response, keep patting themselves on the back for what a 'good job' they have done but and nowhere near getting the virus under some sort of control. Seeing other nations opening up must be a blow to their collective egos.

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From the Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/firearms-at-protests-have-become-normalized-that-isnt-okay/2020/05/06/19b9354e-8fc9-11ea-a0bc-4e9ad4866d21_story.html 

This we know: Black or brown people gathering in the streets or at the statehouse with rifles and body armor would not be tolerated.

They would not be allowed to yell in the face of police officers.

They would not be referred to as “very good people” by a sitting president.

There would be no debate about First or Second Amendment rights.

There would be arrests. Lots of them.

Let’s just admit that.

And let’s admit this, too: We’ve gotten far too accustomed to the image of white protesters carrying paramilitary-level firearms in public spaces. The presence of guns — often really large guns — at protests has become alarmingly normalized. It is time to take stock of what that means.

[Full coverage of the coronavirus pandemic]

Accepting and even expecting to see firearms at protest rallies means that we somehow embrace the threat of chaos and violence. While those who carry say they have no intention of using their weapons, the firepower alone creates a wordless threat, and something far more calamitous if even just one person discharges a round.

If someone were to go rogue, it would be difficult for police to identify a shooter while facing a phalanx of protesters who all have rifles strapped to their shoulders. Distinguishing law enforcement from people dressed as “enforcers” could be tough. During the August 2017 “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, the Virginia National Guard tweeted that its troops were wearing “MP” patches on their uniforms so people could sort the military police from the rifle-wielding paramilitary groups that showed up wearing helmets, camouflage and tactical vests.

Accepting the open display of firearms at protests means we can expect an increased militarization of state and local law enforcement agencies seeking to protect their troops.

Some African American men are criminalized in public spaces, says sociologist Dr. Rashawn Ray. It makes it harder for them to wear face masks during a pandemic. (Video: Joy Sharon Yi/Photo: Danielle Kunitz/The Washington Post)

Accepting the open display of firearms at rallies means we must also admit this confirms a significant cultural shift that collides with norms and current laws. The protesters that stormed the statehouse in Michigan were within their right to carry guns inside the state Capitol under open-carry laws. But their actions were far outside of the comfort zone for many people who work in that building and who dedicate their lives to finding civil solutions to disagreements.

Michigan Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey is a Republican and Second Amendment champion who initially supported challenges to the state’s shutdown order. But in a statement last week, he condemned the use of “intimidation and the threat of physical harm to stir up fear and feed rancor.” There are now discussions about reviewing the laws that allow citizens to carry and display guns inside the Michigan statehouse.

Almost every state has legal tools to crack down on armed militias under laws that prevent the formation of private paramilitaries that are not answerable to civil authorities. Such groups cannot falsely assume police or military roles and are not allowed to provide military training to prepare members for civil disorders. But when heavily armed protesters show up in formation at rallies, they certainly flout these laws.

Is this brazen display of force about the right to own firearms or the right to make armed threats for political purposes? Just asking, because the latter is not a “right” that can be equally asserted. The protests are purportedly about reopening America. A parallel goal is realignment — using the Second Amendment to conduct regular and routine shows of force to intimidate elected officials into enacting a political agenda.

Accepting the display of firearms at protests by some and not others means that we must also accept that some are rewarded with a kind of special citizenship that allows them to be seen as patriotic instead of threatening, and aggrieved instead of aggressive.

If we accept this as normal, it means the country collectively is shrugging its shoulders and co-signing a skewed social contract, in which white-nationalist groups grow in size and influence, as threats against politicians and journalists escalate, and as gun violence and mass shootings continue to rise.

Accepting this increasingly brazen display of guns as normal means an armed political movement is flourishing outside the guardrails of our political system.

[The Opinions section is looking for stories of how the coronavirus has affected people of all walks of life. Write to us.]

This didn’t happen overnight. Advocates for open-carry have been carrying handguns and rifles to department stores, Starbucks and state capitols since 2013 in an effort to normalize firearms in public. The movement is coincidentally aligned with an entertainment trend in which paramilitary forces take center stage in popular video games and TV shows such as HBO’s “Watchmen” and Showtime’s “Homeland.”

Polls show that most Americans prefer a go-slow approach to reopening most businesses. The armed protesters in places such as Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona and North Carolina represent a tiny minority. Some surveys put the most insistent open-now crowd at less than 10 percent. But the weapons make their influence seem larger — and they know that. We see protests punctuated by guns almost every day. It has become routine. We have normalized something that should be shocking.

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Compare the response of the militia protesters & nazi marches vs the response to Black Lives Matter and the Dakota Pipeline protests.

One draws water cannons in freezing conditions, the other brings out militarised police with machine guns on top of armoured personnel carriers. Then for the white protests? Nothing but sympathy and stand downs from the police.

And it's not like it happened just over there. We had Cronulla riots where the cops let feral bogans run riot for hours threatening people who looked foreign and Nazi marches with Victorian cops giving handshakes to the Nazis, vs riot shields & pepper spray for Aboriginal & pro-refugee protests.

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The crazy thing is that they can legally bring assault rifles into the Michigan Capitol Building but have to leave their protest signs outside because there is a law banning signs as they could damage the decorative paint in the old building.

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“As in the gun control debate, public opinion, public health and the public good seem poised to lose out to a select set of personal freedoms. But it’s a child’s two-dimensional view of freedom — one where any suggestion of collective duty and responsibility for others become the chains of tyranny.

This idea of freedom is also an excuse to serve one’s self before others and a shield to hide from responsibility. In the gun rights fight, that freedom manifests in firearms falling into unstable hands. During a pandemic, that freedom manifests in rejections of masks, despite evidence to suggest they protect both the wearers and the people around them. It manifests in a rejection of public health by those who don’t believe their actions affect others.

In this narrow worldview, freedom has a price, in the form of an “acceptable” number of human lives lost. It’s a price that will be calculated and then set by a select few. The rest of us merely pay it.“

 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/opinion/coronavirus-deaths.amp.html

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Here's the most information I have seen on the issue of Covid-19 and schools. It is a quote from an email from my boys Principal to parents. Very balanced 

"Data would also suggest that children are not considerable shedders of the virus. There have been 18 people in schools that have contracted Covid (9 teachers and 9 students). Of those 18, only two were contracted within the school context. One was a teacher to student and one was a student to student. Despite the widespread contact that children and teachers have in schools with others, the actual spread of the disease has been far less than in the broader community (and particularly in health and aged care facilities). While this study has been done in NSW where the sample size has been small, there is confidence in the results because of the extent of the testing and tracing that has enabled researchers to confidently identify the source of contagion in each case. It mirrors similar evidence from around the world. Numerous hypotheses have been put forward but the overall message is that children may be better at not contracting and not spreading the disease. That does not mean they are immune from the disease but may be less at risk and may experience the disease less severely."

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Tempory Law change for dootball change due to Covid-19

🔄 Teams can now make up to FIVE subs per game ... for now via @Onefootball. Read it here: https://1.ftb.al/AocJDqauk6

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Australia has done well in managing Covid-19 so far.  We are the 55th country by population, 13th by GDP and 12th by GDP pp.

Total cases of Covid-19 - 50th on the list of countries on worldometer.

Total number of deaths - 64th on the list.

Cases per 1m population - 90th on the list.

Deaths per 1m population - 100th on the list.

Total number of tests - 12th on the list.

Number of tests per 1m population - 36th on the list.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Flytox said:

Australia has done well in managing Covid-19 so far.  We are the 55th country by population, 13th by GDP and 12th by GDP pp.

Total cases of Covid-19 - 50th on the list of countries on worldometer.

Total number of deaths - 64th on the list.

Cases per 1m population - 90th on the list.

Deaths per 1m population - 100th on the list.

Total number of tests - 12th on the list.

Number of tests per 1m population - 36th on the list.

 

 

Credit where credit is due. This government I think has struck a good balance both state and federal. They did it start off well with the “it’s just the flu” bullshit, but they got there in the end. It’s nice to see them listening to the experts for a change. 

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^^^^^^^

Below is an article in the OZ ... News main right wing attack machine ... BTW  is on the News site so can be opened... it shreds the US and praises Australia... aside from the government's, I think businesses, people in general ie stay at home, and aside from a handful the media has also got behind the government. 

Its a great lesson in two things, first allowing experts with detailed and en-depth knowledge who have systems in place be heard and use their plans... thus public trust and normally correct decision making, second clear and factual communication with a common message .... aside from a handful of times I have been astonished by the cooperation between the various states, parties and opposition leaders.  

Well worth reading not that we should draw any satisfaction at the suffering of US citizens but  for whatever reason or influences .......that the Federal government, states and territories  have worked so well together we should be very thankful.

As I said decent read.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-all-the-mistakes-the-united-states-has-made-in-its-response-to-the-pandemic/news-story/8e1ac00f5074ed0a1cc6466a73e0e3cb

 

 

 

 

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The reason a right wing mag can make the comparison with the US is because what’s happened in the US is not because there is a right wing government in place but because the federal government there is beyond incompetent. 

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12 hours ago, Cynth said:

Credit where credit is due. This government I think has struck a good balance both state and federal. They did it start off well with the “it’s just the flu” bullshit, but they got there in the end. It’s nice to see them listening to the experts for a change. 

i am not sure how good a job the government did tbh, at first they were very late in reacting and there was some inconsistencies throughout like schools being open while everything else being shut however we have done very well compared to most countries so maybe they did good, 100 times better than their reaction to the fires

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Am imagine of sport in the US in 1918...

Moeda 'Pelé - Copa do Mundo 1970' - Revista Placar - Raríssima ...

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, HollowedHeart said:

i am not sure how good a job the government did tbh, at first they were very late in reacting and there was some inconsistencies throughout like schools being open while everything else being shut however we have done very well compared to most countries so maybe they did good, 100 times better than their reaction to the fires

The state Premiers are the ones who have done the majority of the heavy lifting in the C-19 response. Not the feds. They are the ones who run health,education and are also enforcing social distancing laws and such. Morrison is just a side show.

Edited by sonar

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9 minutes ago, sonar said:

The state Premiers are the ones who have done the majority of the heavy lifting in the C-19 response. Not the feds.

i can agree with that, i mean i know its not over so it could get worse but so far its been handled well with a few hiccups, i do wonder how much different things would be if we had trump at the helm, isolation is great in terms of we are pretty much on our own far away from most countries but in the world where we can get anywhere on the planet in a very fast time i wonder if that isolation helped us as much as i originally assumed

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