Holger Out!

Fans have been asking for this for a long time. FFA wont do jack during the qualification.

I think it's the players too that are the problem. There are some players we need to let go of at this stage, we need to build a strong squad with a core that will be able to compete for the next 5-10 years. Start playing them together now so that by the time the next World Cup comes along we have a team that will actually be able to compete.

 

The way we hire managers for one campaign is stupid. It means they are focused on getting to the next World Cup and that's it. No forward thinking, no working towards the future. Farina may not have been the best manager/coach but the length of time he had meant that when Guus took over there was a developed core to work with. These players are still playing now, 7 years after that qualifying campaign. Time to move on.

But sub when Holger was hired this is the job he was given. He was supposed to start doing that as soon as he got on the job. Not now. There were statements made about how it wasn't just an appointment for getting to the next WC it was to help develop a new generation. He has failed abysmally in that department.

His criticism of the "young players" was dreadful especially given that. He's supposed to be cultivating them and then he effectively slags Kruse and Oar when they were the ones who gave it a good go and showed some desire and willingness to run at the defense.  

It's also the managers job to get the players fired up. Maybe we are used to seeing the effort of our own players but that effort was sorely lacking in the first half. Brosque half starting and then giving up and walking on several occasions springs to mind. That doesn't relate to their skill - it relates to their motivation, something the manager has to be responsible for.

i don't understand what happened last night. it seemed like the players had no heart. like they didn't want to be out there. The two best on the night i think were Timmy and Kruse.

Oar did ok but lacked support when he tired to go up.

More youth players need to come in now as they will be the future. I don't think Holger gets that.

The fact that these long balls being played up to strikers who are clearly one touch players also has an effect on them. Can't believe Holman, he does nothing the whole game and then scores. sigh.

 

I think it's the players too that are the problem. There are some players we need to let go of at this stage, we need to build a strong squad with a core that will be able to compete for the next 5-10 years. Start playing them together now so that by the time the next World Cup comes along we have a team that will actually be able to compete.

 

The way we hire managers for one campaign is stupid. It means they are focused on getting to the next World Cup and that's it. No forward thinking, no working towards the future. Farina may not have been the best manager/coach but the length of time he had meant that when Guus took over there was a developed core to work with. These players are still playing now, 7 years after that qualifying campaign. Time to move on.

 

But sub when Holger was hired this is the job he was given. He was supposed to start doing that as soon as he got on the job. Not now. There were statements made about how it wasn't just an appointment for getting to the next WC it was to help develop a new generation. He has failed abysmally in that department.

 

His criticism of the "young players" was dreadful especially given that. He's supposed to be cultivating them and then he effectively slags Kruse and Oar when they were the ones who gave it a good go and showed some desire and willingness to run at the defense.  

 

It's also the managers job to get the players fired up. Maybe we are used to seeing the effort of our own players but that effort was sorely lacking in the first half. Brosque half starting and then giving up and walking on several occasions springs to mind. That doesn't relate to their skill - it relates to their motivation, something the manager has to be responsible for.

I wasn't aware that he was given that instruction. Even more reason to get rid of him then.

Damn...I want to defend Holger, I do. It doesn't seem that long ago he was the man who was in the coach's box when we stamped all over Uzbekistan at the AFC,when the team seemed to raise its tempo and flair to levels hardly seen before. Or was there when we took some kind of revenge against Deutschland, knocking them off at their home in a way that made 2010 hurt a little less. I've met the man and he spoke with me like a guy who was unafraid to raise issues with Joe Public about what was right and wrong with the team. He's come to A-League games and shown far greater respect for the domestic competition than his predecessor, and he has said a lot of good things about the Wanderers. Even considering the stop-start nature of our efforts to qualify for 2014 he has a fairly good win/loss record contrasted with other Socceroo coaches. Then there is the actual cattle he has...how can he be expected to achieve results like Guus and Pim did when his squad doesn't have the same overall quality of players getting lots of game time in the best teams in the best leagues...

And then he has Thwaite in a CB pozzie, and doesn't see the problems with the likes of Jedinak, Brosque, Holland...

ARGH!!! (Insert primal scream here)

I'm not calling for his head right now, but if there is no discernable change after the next qualifier then I will do what comes natural to the Bling...I'll jump on the bandwagon and scream for the coach's noggin.

Problem is if you dont give the younger players ago, theres no pressure on the regular shitters to improve,

Bringing in youth isn't the answer at this point. It's obvious Holger was never given the directives until recently to bring in young players but when you do so like last night and some of them are the worst on the field then it kind of kills off their chances in the near future.

Bringing in youth isn't the answer at this point. It's obvious Holger was never given the directives until recently to bring in young players but when you do so like last night and some of them are the worst on the field then it kind of kills off their chances in the near future.

It might not be the answer to win games now, but it is the answer to win games in the future. We should be trying to organize friendlies in europe and asia and trying to put a core together.

Which young players? There were only 2 players under the age of 25 on the pitch at the same time and only three total. The only poor performance was Holland but then the entire team's performance was **** until then. The other two were Oar, who destroyed Oman when he came on, and the 3rd was Kruse, who was the only person prior to Oar who could beat his man.

Was Herd called up for this game btw? I wasn't really following the squad too closely.

Damn...I want to defend Holger, I do. It doesn't seem that long ago he was the man who was in the coach's box when we stamped all over Uzbekistan at the AFC,when the team seemed to raise its tempo and flair to levels hardly seen before. Or was there when we took some kind of revenge against Deutschland, knocking them off at their home in a way that made 2010 hurt a little less. I've met the man and he spoke with me like a guy who was unafraid to raise issues with Joe Public about what was right and wrong with the team. He's come to A-League games and shown far greater respect for the domestic competition than his predecessor, and he has said a lot of good things about the Wanderers. Even considering the stop-start nature of our efforts to qualify for 2014 he has a fairly good win/loss record contrasted with other Socceroo coaches. Then there is the actual cattle he has...how can he be expected to achieve results like Guus and Pim did when his squad doesn't have the same overall quality of players getting lots of game time in the best teams in the best leagues...

 

And then he has Thwaite in a CB pozzie, and doesn't see the problems with the likes of Jedinak, Brosque, Holland...

 

ARGH!!! (Insert primal scream here)

 

I'm not calling for his head right now, but if there is no discernable change after the next qualifier then I will do what comes natural to the Bling...I'll jump on the bandwagon and scream for the coach's noggin.

agree for the most part, except for jedinak - he was great until he scored that goal, and is (probably) the best in that position ( with mooy being injured ). should have been subbed after seeing how bad he was after "scoring".

The $64,000 question is what exactly in definitive, writ-on-stone, were the directives given to Holger when he was signed on. My suspicion/expectation was first and foremost was to win as many games possible and get us through to Brazil. This stems from the experience in Australian football not just under the FFA, but also under the old ASF and other regimes that the sport lived and died through the performance of the Socceroos. Whilst the domestic game was not seen as a priority for the powers that be, all seemed to ride on the national team, and that mentality was definitely there when Venables and Hiddink were signed on, and I would argue was also there in spades with Pim. Throw in the relatively stable and successful environment engendered by the so-called golden generation, where so many of our best players went through that period in the late 90s/early 2000s playing high level youth/Olympic/club football in competitive situations, then it was easy for a Socceroo coach to be brought in on the criterion of 'get the Socceroos to the WC'.

Now, for the first time in perhaps two decades we have a coach who is expected to not just get the results with dwindling talent plus reinvigorate the national team with talent that is so far yet to adequately meet expectations. Take as a case in point Aaron Mooy. He has played very well in many games for the Wanderers, having returned to us after his very average experiences with Bolton and St Mirren. However he has not demonstrated enough capability to be positioned as part of the regeneration of the national team, and this coupled with the need for Holger to get results means that Aaron will hardly get a look in. He will play more games for the Socceroos, certainly in friendlies or regional championships, but it is unrealistic to expect him (or say a Babal or others of their ilk) to come though into the Socceroos when the main priority will always be win through to the WC. So now, like a vicious circle the lack of success means there is less chance to bring on younger players, which means when younger players fail to meet expectations the team looks worse etc etc etc.

Right now we are living with the result sof the last three U-20s Youth World Cups, when in 2007 we didn't even qualify and in both 2009 and 2011 we finished last in our groups. It seems very harsh to judge Holger on the youth transition of the Socceroos when he has been asked to get us success in the 2011 AFC, qualify for WC2014 and generally win most games Australia plays, when our younger players have already demonstrated they aren't as good as we would like them to be. It's also being borne out with the lack of players getting enough game time in the best leagues, and too many coming back to the A League like saviours when in fact they are not doing anything better than before they left (e.g. Rukyvytsa, Djite, Garcia).

If we are going to miss out on qualifying for 2014 then don't lay all the blame on Holger's head...but having said that he will need to go as part of an overall restructure and revisiting of our longer term football aims. Then we can use the 2015 AFC tourney as a target to have a team perhaps built around some of the guys who are right now in our youth team (e.g. Gameiro, Taggart, Caira, Antonis).

And as for bringing in an Australian coach...yes, I think it is time for an Ange or a Popa to be given the reins, and not just for one WC, but for maybe two...

Was Herd called up for this game btw? I wasn't really following the squad too closely.

I was disappointed not to see Lowry from Millwall not to get called up.

 

Damn...I want to defend Holger, I do. It doesn't seem that long ago he was the man who was in the coach's box when we stamped all over Uzbekistan at the AFC,when the team seemed to raise its tempo and flair to levels hardly seen before. Or was there when we took some kind of revenge against Deutschland, knocking them off at their home in a way that made 2010 hurt a little less. I've met the man and he spoke with me like a guy who was unafraid to raise issues with Joe Public about what was right and wrong with the team. He's come to A-League games and shown far greater respect for the domestic competition than his predecessor, and he has said a lot of good things about the Wanderers. Even considering the stop-start nature of our efforts to qualify for 2014 he has a fairly good win/loss record contrasted with other Socceroo coaches. Then there is the actual cattle he has...how can he be expected to achieve results like Guus and Pim did when his squad doesn't have the same overall quality of players getting lots of game time in the best teams in the best leagues...

 

And then he has Thwaite in a CB pozzie, and doesn't see the problems with the likes of Jedinak, Brosque, Holland...

 

ARGH!!! (Insert primal scream here)

 

I'm not calling for his head right now, but if there is no discernable change after the next qualifier then I will do what comes natural to the Bling...I'll jump on the bandwagon and scream for the coach's noggin.

 

agree for the most part, except for jedinak - he was great until he scored that goal, and is (probably) the best in that position ( with mooy being injured ). should have been subbed after seeing how bad he was after "scoring".

Sorry Guy, but Jedinak was slow and uncertain in his play almost from the get go. He and Holland were just non-functional in the centre midfield, and by the time Bresc came on it was almost too late. Mooy is not yet up to sniff I think as a national CM though he is getting there. It's a shame Chris Herd has had shockingly bad luck with injuries as he might have been a better option.

For the last 2 years - he had the chance to give all the younger player a run (with a few veterans) but he chose the easy option of just playing the vets. Now we are in a position where there is no team cohesion as we are introducing new players.

 

It's been a wasted period in NT development as we limp through the qualifiers.

Hit the nail on the head here!

The fact that some of the players, as quoted earlier, couldnt execute the most simplest of task - passing the ball, is only a consequence of holger not involving new talent from the very begining. Confidence breeds more confidence. The fact that he has left it so late to get youth and seniors playing together regularly is starting to take its toll.

Holger is every bit as responsible as the players on the pitch for their perfomrnace, if not more. His approach from a selection and tactical point of view has been under par from the very begining and tonights was no different. how the hell do you play a 4-2-3-1 when you know the oppositon is going to sit back and play on the counter. We were never going to penetrate their defense effectively with that shape, which is why he brought on brecs and tommy oar in the second half and look what happened.

im no techincal expert by any stretch, but you dont need to be a pro to see how bad his selections were.

 

 

I think it's the players too that are the problem. There are some players we need to let go of at this stage, we need to build a strong squad with a core that will be able to compete for the next 5-10 years. Start playing them together now so that by the time the next World Cup comes along we have a team that will actually be able to compete.

 

The way we hire managers for one campaign is stupid. It means they are focused on getting to the next World Cup and that's it. No forward thinking, no working towards the future. Farina may not have been the best manager/coach but the length of time he had meant that when Guus took over there was a developed core to work with. These players are still playing now, 7 years after that qualifying campaign. Time to move on.

 

But sub when Holger was hired this is the job he was given. He was supposed to start doing that as soon as he got on the job. Not now. There were statements made about how it wasn't just an appointment for getting to the next WC it was to help develop a new generation. He has failed abysmally in that department.

 

His criticism of the "young players" was dreadful especially given that. He's supposed to be cultivating them and then he effectively slags Kruse and Oar when they were the ones who gave it a good go and showed some desire and willingness to run at the defense.  

 

It's also the managers job to get the players fired up. Maybe we are used to seeing the effort of our own players but that effort was sorely lacking in the first half. Brosque half starting and then giving up and walking on several occasions springs to mind. That doesn't relate to their skill - it relates to their motivation, something the manager has to be responsible for.

 

I wasn't aware that he was given that instruction. Even more reason to get rid of him then.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football/holger-who-20100811-11zqy.html

Osieck, who turns 62 this month, has been charged with rebuilding the Australian team with a view to competing strongly at the 2014 World Cup in Brazil and bringing through the next generation of local footballers, a task he described as a ''great challenge''.

Perhaps it was naive on my part but my view of Holger throughout his time at the helm has been framed through an assumption that this was accurate (i'm sure i read it in other sources at the time of his appointment as well).

I think better option would have been toppa stanley istead of that retard Michael Thwaite. He lacked fitness.

cant we go back to the glory days of oceania

the system where we qualified once in 30 years?

we will still make brazil.....i feel it in my bones however Holger takes the conservative option too often

Robbie Kruse was only one taking people on and Tommy Oar looked ok when he came on

Not starting with Bresc big mistake.....our midfield was a vacant carpark.....no distribution either

And why the fuk does it take 2-0 down before people start firing up and playing

Well done to Cahill.....stood up and still our best

Park the bobcat next time because the amount of holes needed to be dug for Omanies

Here's a question...

How is it that the Holger of last night couldn't get the win when the Holger of the October 11, 2011 game in Sydney against Oman coached us to a 3-0 thumping victory? Has he changed that much for the worse as a coach, as a motivator, as a tactician, as a selector? Or are we skirting around the fact that the squad has gone backwards either through lack of quality game time in their relevant leagues, lack of maturity from some of our so-called young guns, lack of motivation, injury and shock horror..maybe the opposition has gotten better.

I still have vast reserves of distrust about Holger's work with the team in the recent campaign, specifically focusing on last night. But let's not use the ESFC approach and shoot the coach first.

It also raises another question; would we be better off with a coach who develops a team around a core A-League focus that fits into a specific tactical and cohesive structure, than continually assembling a group of odds and sods from around the world. Would the Popa experience at the Wanderers, where a team has been melded into an organic and unified group with sound tactical and physical structures be better than relying on the supposedly best indviduals available at the time jetting in for a one off game every so often..

http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/socceroos/mark-bosnich-tim-cahill-and-robbie-kruse-reflect-on-australias-2-2-draw-with-oman-in-sydney/story-e6frf4l3-1226607425942#.UVJuy1e1l8E

bozza at his best.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/socceroos/mark-bosnich-tim-cahill-and-robbie-kruse-reflect-on-australias-2-2-draw-with-oman-in-sydney/story-e6frf4l3-1226607425942#.UVJuy1e1l8E

 

bozza at his best.

Haha he really fired up ey? He's right though.

In saying that I don't remember us ever playing any long periods of fast paced football. At least not frequently.

I don't know if it's just obvious to me or I'm a genius. However, last night was a case of massively under estimating our opposition, by our own players. 

Add to that too many players without enough game time, or game time in quality leagues, is the recipe for sub par performances.

Am I alone in thinking Bresciano looked quite average when he came on?

Jedinak and Brosque appeared to be unfit.

We lacked the desire to be first to the ball. The enthusiasm. The understanding of the importance of the match. The players seemed to literally be going through the motions.

The excuse that some are coming from colder climes is just that, an excuse. They've had 10 days here. They are professionals.

Timmy, Oar and Kruse were the only players who showed real desire. Took their man on, tried to spark something.

I've got no doubt that an Aussie based a League squad would have performed better. And that's saying something.

In relation to Holger, I'm very surprised Rogic didn't get a run. The game was crying out for his creativity, slalom runs and general spark.

I must say though, that until we have an Aussie coach, with the same emphasis placed on development and not just qualifying, we will be in for some lean years.

O/S Coaches are great for a short term solution. I can understand why they have a reluctance to develop. He qualifies, he's a genius who either gets another contract (plus bonus) or adds to his CV and goes on to another great gig. It's a very short sighted approach, but that's the way it's set up.

Popa will oneday be the longest serving Australian coach

its his destiny

In relation to Holger, I'm very surprised Rogic didn't get a run. The game was crying out for his creativity, slalom runs and general spark.

I don't know if it's just obvious to me or I'm a genius. However, last night was a case of massively under estimating our opposition, by our own players. 

Add to that too many players without enough game time, or game time in quality leagues, is the recipe for sub par performances.

 

Am I alone in thinking Bresciano looked quite average when he came on?

Jedinak and Brosque appeared to be unfit.

 

We lacked the desire to be first to the ball. The enthusiasm. The understanding of the importance of the match. The players seemed to literally be going through the motions.

The excuse that some are coming from colder climes is just that, an excuse. They've had 10 days here. They are professionals.

 

Timmy, Oar and Kruse were the only players who showed real desire. Took their man on, tried to spark something.

 

I've got no doubt that an Aussie based a League squad would have performed better. And that's saying something.

 

In relation to Holger, I'm very surprised Rogic didn't get a run. The game was crying out for his creativity, slalom runs and general spark.

 

I must say though, that until we have an Aussie coach, with the same emphasis placed on development and not just qualifying, we will be in for some lean years.

 

O/S Coaches are great for a short term solution. I can understand why they have a reluctance to develop. He qualifies, he's a genius who either gets another contract (plus bonus) or adds to his CV and goes on to another great gig. It's a very short sighted approach, but that's the way it's set up.

 No I think a lot of us saw the same thing....you could replace 'unfit' with 'complacent'..... Archie, Oar & Bresciano fired up when they came on, which helped to lift the team too - first half was terrible to watch - no enthusiasm, no variety and a very sleepy defense.

A long-term Aussie coach or a long-term coach is what we need....the ring-ins were good at a time, but we've past that stage now. I don't see any great achievement by Holger.

In relation to Holger, I'm very surprised Rogic didn't get a run. The game was crying out for his creativity, slalom runs and general spark.

Yep that was the main thing missing someone who could get on the ball and make something happen.

Perhaps Roy & HG knew something all those years ago when Holger signed on...

Agreed - Holger out.

Nothing to add, just wanted to voice my support

i think that we will qualify for brazil, its the 2018 world cup that im most worried about, unless the current U23 socceroos can
all of a sudden come out of nowhere, i think that we will have fall before we build another team we can compete well at the world cup.

2015 asian cup will be a big test as well, being the host nation and one of the highest ranked teams in asia, we have to win the whole thing.
anything less than winning the asian cup will be a failure

I've been in the give-Holger-a-go camp for some time now given the points made here relating to lack of cattle and also the fact that I'm a firm believer in giving a manager the opportunity to build structure and establish a culture. I also think he has had a quite thankless task of refreshing a squad while still bearing the burden of results. The reason I'm being firmly guided toward the #HolgerOut camp is that this season's a-league ladder highlights that it is possible to achieve both tasks:

1. Western Sydney Wanderers - 54 points

2. Central Coast Mariners - 51 points

3. Melbourne Victory - 41 points

The WSW probably requires little verbiage here, but in case you've been hiding under a rock - New Club. A-League cast-offs. Performance unarguable. Results unarguable. Player development unarguable.

CCM has season-after-season sold its best players (Rostyn Griffiths, Mustafa Amini, Tom Rogic, et al) to fund the club. Yet given this (constant) period of change they have always managed to achieve results. Additionally, they have promoted young players - Mitch Duke, Adrian Caceras, Trent Sainsbury, etc. - and found them to not only be able to handle the jump, but to play starring roles.

MV changed managers coming off a very disappointing prior season. They have probably been the most adventurous (along with NJ) when it comes to blooding young players this season with the likes of Connor Pain (19 y.o.), Andrew Nabbout (19 y.o.) and Scott Galloway (18 y.o.) all regular starters.

I don't think it's unfair to say that the above three teams have looked a class above the rest of the league - and to take it a step further, the top two are 10 points clear of MV for the very same reason. To get back to the original point, while I agree it is a tough ask to expect a manager to refresh a squad, build a culture and still get results, we have three Australian managers proving beyond doubt that it is possible. The most disappointing aspect of Tuesday night for me was the distinct lack of effort shown by some players (prime offender: Brett Holman) which is something we have NOT seen from either WSW or CCM this season. I don't believe either Popa or Arnie would stand for it, they would both send the offender(s) packing.

In summary, though it pains me to admit defeat, we need to blood young talent and that appears to include the manager.

- Holger Out.