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  • Hatamoto & FFA Jeopardise Supporter Safety at Sydney Derby


    mack

    Hatamoto have gone against world best practice with their decision to hold back Western Sydney supporters at the conclusion of the first ever Sydney Derby.

     

    The move has sparked anger among the supporter group the Red & Black Bloc. It is against world-wide practice and will lead to confusion and potential safety issues. With the Derby being considered a 'high risk' match in terms of security and police arrangements the FFA's security agency Hatamoto have made a decision to keep the entire Wanderers active support bay inside the stadium for 30 minutes after the match.

     

    While the gates will not be locked, Hatamoto have advised the supporters that they will be labelled 'non-conformist' should they attempt to leave. The counter-terror security agency have threatened that supporters who leave the ground before Hatamoto desire them to will be targeted by their security. Hatamoto have indicated that even a minor 'offence' such as crossing a street without security approval could lead to being detained and/or being banned from A-League matches. There have also been threats made that jeopardise future supporter marches and other supporter group events. This is a grave insult to people who have put their hard earned money as well as their time and effort into this club, at such a vital time for the club.

     

    The decision has said to have been made due to 'logistics' reasons. The FFA believe that when the Wanderers win the match, the supporters in the Red & Black Bloc will prefer to stay inside the bay to celebrate rather than making their way to their home pub. The FFA have planned some minor events to take place during this 30 minute dead zone. Hatamoto will be stationing security guards to discourage people from moving about. It is also important to note that the Red & Black Bloc are located in an end that is not exclusively for active support. Only three of the bays are active support. It will mean Hatamoto guards will be preventing families, many with young children, from leaving the stadium on time. The Wanderers club have sided with their supporters and pushed for the away fans to stay inside the stadium but as the Wanderers only rent the stadium their hands are tied by the FFA, Stadium, Police and Hatamoto.

     

    Matt Adamson spent 4 years in a senior management position at one of Europe's leading crowd management companies. He has vast experience with contracts involving the largest clubs in the world and I asked for his thoughts on the issue of crowd control at football matches, "There are two common methods for safe egress of supporters at the conclusion of a football match that is deemed high risk. The first is to hold back away fans while the home fans disperse. This has been utilised previously at A-League fixtures in Newcastle, Melbourne & Gosford and is the standard procedure throughout Europe. The other method is to segregate fans via the use of designated entry/exit gates and temporary fencing to serve as a physical barrier.

     

    "I believe that the current position of Hatamoto and their recommendations for the management of the crowd at the Sydney derby are reflective of a skill-set that is not compatible with football. They ignore the passions and expectations of fans. It is ignorant of accepted traditions and widely accepted practices in managing football crowds safely.

     

    "Hatamoto is taking the opposite approach and attitude towards this fixture than what I observed during my time in European football. While I have no doubt that Hatamoto are experts in counter-terrorism, they have a lot to learn about football."

     

    A listing of matches, countries and leagues which follow the home supporters first doctrine would be endless. The doctrine is accepted best practice and is commonplace worldwide. Throughout all levels of league football, cup matches, derby, non-derby, continental and international matches away supporters are kept behind. This method is in practice for the A-League as well. Sydney FC supporters would already be expecting to stay behind for a period of time and many would have operated under the condition in previous away matches such as those in Gosford, Newcastle and Melbourne. In general the vast majority of away supporters at a match will be in the away bays and they will stick together until they leave the stadium. Home supporters could be in many different stands even if they come to the stadium as a group, and locking in groups of home supporters will mean people hanging around the stadium waiting for the rest of their group. Keeping away fans in their bay enables security to spend more time preparing for the exit of the away supporters as well as enabling potentially aggressive supporters of the home team to be pushed away from the stadium.

     

    Western Sydney Supporters spokesman Sean Herrett spoke to WestSydneyFootball.Com about the situation, "The Parramatta police are not sure what to expect. They are not football educated. The Chief Inspector of Parramatta LAC was unaware of the practice of away supporters being kept in their bays after the match. The officer who was in charge for the first round match is no longer involved and appears not to have passed on any knowledge and information to the replacement officer."

     

    This turn of events is disappointing for supporters of football in Australia. Active support groups have spent years trying to educate the police and security forces in regards to the best way to enable safe active support and the safe exit of supporters regardless of what team they followed. While the A-League is being advertised by the slogan 'We Are Football' it is necessary to remind those who 'are not yet football' what the best practices are in situations that crop up dozens of times every year in world football. Over zealous security and police responses have a chilling effect on the active support culture that enables football to generate atmosphere unmatched by any other code of sport in Australia. It is up to the police and security to get educated and to listen to supporter groups and those with experience in football crowd management. With Melbourne Victory advising their fans not to travel to 'high risk' matches due to over zealous security treatment, as well as police brutality against Sydney United supporters in a Wanderers pre-season fixture, it is clear that security and police forces have yet to truly understand active support culture. NSW Police, and the Parramatta Local Area Command in particular have shown a desire to become educated and to understand the situation to enable safe conduct for all parties in regards to Western Sydney Wanderers matches. Hatamoto has not.

     

    Hatamoto are still refusing to engage with football supporters and are failing to educate their own leadership about football culture. Such issues have been raised as long as Hatamoto have been involved with the A-League. In 2009 Hatamoto were exposed for attempting to infiltrate supporters groups with undercover security guards. In 2011 questions were raised as to why a counter-terrorism company would be involved with football as well what qualifications the leaders of Hatamoto had to dictate security procedures for football matches.

     

    Sean Herrett talked about his dealings with Hatamoto, "I personally spoke with Peter Shepherd from Hatamoto. Mr Shepherd is aware of our anger over the situation, but has dismissed our concerns due to his experience over the past 5 years in dealing with A-League supporter groups. Mr Shepherd also refused to continue with direct dialogue and instead demanded all discussion to go through middlemen at the FFA."

     

    When the security group are the only group unwilling to directly discuss the situation with the supporters group, can anyone blame the supporter groups for their distrust of Hatamoto? Hatamoto work to stereotype and exaggerate the 'threat' that supporters group have to the A-League brand and the safety of other patrons to A-League matches. Hatamoto are the only group who must continually justify their existence and input into the A-League. The police have a duty to the public. The FFA run the competition. The supporters want to support their team and watch the matches. The players play in these matches. The club participate in the competition. If Hatamoto cannot justify their existence in the A-League they will lose their lucrative contracts. In a way it makes sense that they would refuse to engage. By refusing to engage it enables them to suggest to the FFA that their job will never be complete and to avoid humanising their 'targets'. The problem is that refusal to engage puts the supporters at risk of over-zealous security guards.

     

    In the first round match against the Central Coast Mariners the only piece of crowd trouble came from a group of people not from the Red & Black Bloc. They had tickets and/or memberships for the section of the ground next to the away bay. Should they desire to cause trouble again they could cause a major problem by attacking Sydney FC fans who are let out at the same time as they are, while the security is focused on keeping the Red & Black Bloc penned inside the home end.

     

    The obvious solution is holding the Sydney FC fans in their bay as per standard worldwide practice so that all Western Sydney Wanderers supporters can disperse and leave the vicinity of the stadium. 30 minutes later this would be followed by police and security escorting the Sydney FC fans to Parramatta Station. Instead Hatamoto have decided on a patch-work solution that will only exacerbate the potential for trouble instead of reducing it.

     

    Football Federation Australia must remember that it is not Peter Shepherd and Hatamoto who run football in Australia or the A-League. It is Frank Lowy, Ben Buckley and Damien de Bohun. They must remind themselves that the reason they run football is for the supporters of the game, not for the bank balance of a secretive counter-terrorist security company looking for their next contract.

     

    The Western Sydney Wanderers, Football Federation Australia, Hatamoto, the Red & Black Bloc and NSW Police are still in negotiations to determine the final security arrangements and we hope to bring positive news on that front.

     

    The Sydney Derby will be played at 7:45pm on Saturday the 20th of October at Parramatta Stadium. The match has sold out to the general public. Membership and Corporate tickets are still available but in limited numbers.


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    Recommended Comments



    Jowel

    Posted

    Are Hatamoto standing behind their 'rules' or not? So we're locked in, then we're actually not locked in. WTF?

     

    Sounds like Hatamoto are staying close enough to the action to control this situation but far enough away so as to take no responsibility.

    Benched

    Posted

    I think the most disappointing part is, it show's a complete lack of respect for the home team supporters. This is OUR day. This is a celebration of Western Sydney.

    Do you seriously think at ALLIANZ the RBB are going to be allowed to leave before the Cove?

     

    Anyway, I don't want everyone getting worked up just yet. We have ongoing discussions planned. I actually asked Mack not to make this public until after the discussions take place today....Mack :nono: however he is rightly peeved off just like you all.

     

    Let's all take a chill pill. It will work out in the end.

    BigDukes

    Posted

    lets hope common sense prevails in the end *fingers crossed*

    WSdna

    Posted

    So.... they are basically just asking the home end to stay behind? They won't lock the gates? But then if people take into consideration what they have been asked and decide to leave anyway... Hatamoto are going to react by "labelling" these people "non-conformist"? WIll this labelling be down with a baton or by detaining?

     

    This is asking for trouble. ...

     

    I don't see the big deal for the first time. Later on they can relax it a bit.

     

    you really dont know hatamoto...you really think this will be the only time they will react like this...they are a farking plague...

    Montalbano

    Posted

    So.... they are basically just asking the home end to stay behind? They won't lock the gates? But then if people take into consideration what they have been asked and decide to leave anyway... Hatamoto are going to react by "labelling" these people "non-conformist"? WIll this labelling be down with a baton or by detaining?

     

    This is asking for trouble. ...

     

    I don't see the big deal for the first time. Later on they can relax it a bit.

     

    you really dont know hatamoto...you really think this will be the only time they will react like this...they are a farking plague...

     

    Fair enough. Maybe I don't. I just don't want to see any violent scenes of any sort. I hope Benched has this all under control and an agreement is reached which suits both sides.

    marron

    Posted

    Aside from whether or not keeping the home fans behind is a good idea or not, if they are going to do it they need to do it. Not ask people to do it but then treat those that don't as criminals.

     

    True. It would be a good idea to co-operate in this situation in my opinion. Show some goodwill. It will be easier next time.

     

    I agree Monty... but can't imagine everyone will - and I think Hatamoto must know this.

    CaptGrumpy

    Posted

    To all the people saying if there is any trouble and the RBB aren't involved, then it's not our problem, need to wake up!

    If anything stupid does happen, it's then a problem for football, the aleague, the teams, players and supporters. We've already seen the media will take any negative and bash our sport. It would detract from what will be a historic occasion for football in this country. It will mean over zealous security for future matches, affect tv rights negotiations, corporate backers, the list goes on.

    The point is, this is a stupid decision that could have potential ramifications for all football fans in Australia.

     

    You are not reading the comments. At no stage is anyone saying that trouble outside the RBB is not a problem. What is being said is it's not YOUR problem. It has implactions for the RBB but it is not the RBBs problem.

     

    If you want to take it on as YOUR problem then it becomes YOUR responsibility to solve it. So what are the RBB going to do to stop anyone else having a fight?

    Benched raised the issue about the possibility of some unknown fan having a axe to grind and going nuts when released with the SFC fans. I understand your point but you can do nothing about that except raise the issue with the people whose problem it is and allow them to decide what to do with your advice. But remember they are probably working on a risk model. They are trying to work out where the biggest risks lie in the various approaches. They cannot guarantee no issues ever. They look at the risks and try to minimise them - the biggest risk lies in the the two active support groups coming together witha gang mentality ensuing and an altercation taking place where 20+ are involved.

     

    I think we all absolutely agree if something bad happens then it's not good for football, and the implication going forward could be quite bad. But it is the job of the club and FFA and police and security to plan and execute that plan to minimise the risk of issues.

     

    Now you want to talk about what is the RBBs problem? The only thing that is the RBBs problem in all this is how to act/react given the circumstances that you are presented with. I think it is clear that the plan at th memoment is for the RBB (along with others at the home end), are being ASKED to stay behind to allow them to clear the other fans first. The RBB can choose what to do with that request. You can be compliant and remain behind or be noncompliant and leave. They have asked it for a reason - you may not agree with that reason - but remember it's not YOUR problem. The wise thing would be for the RBB to comply with the requests. Why? Because it allows them to execute their plan without the issues raised by the RBB doing their own thing. Because it means the RBB are seen to not be trouble makers but a damn fine active support end.

     

    I am not saying that they have it perfectly right. There is clearly a discussion still going on to try to sort out the issues. They will never please everyone with their plans. Everyone needs to take a big breath and chill and just make sure that we all (RBB members and non-RBB members) are committed to ensuring that we don't escalate any issues to the point where there is trouble.

    Borogz

    Posted (edited)

    To all the people saying if there is any trouble and the RBB aren't involved, then it's not our problem, need to wake up!

    If anything stupid does happen, it's then a problem for football, the aleague, the teams, players and supporters. We've already seen the media will take any negative and bash our sport. It would detract from what will be a historic occasion for football in this country. It will mean over zealous security for future matches, affect tv rights negotiations, corporate backers, the list goes on.

    The point is, this is a stupid decision that could have potential ramifications for all football fans in Australia.

     

    You are not reading the comments. At no stage is anyone saying that trouble outside the RBB is not a problem. What is being said is it's not YOUR problem. It has implactions for the RBB but it is not the RBBs problem.

     

    If you want to take it on as YOUR problem then it becomes YOUR responsibility to solve it. So what are the RBB going to do to stop anyone else having a fight?

    Benched raised the issue about the possibility of some unknown fan having a axe to grind and going nuts when released with the SFC fans. I understand your point but you can do nothing about that except raise the issue with the people whose problem it is and allow them to decide what to do with your advice. But remember they are probably working on a risk model. They are trying to work out where the biggest risks lie in the various approaches. They cannot guarantee no issues ever. They look at the risks and try to minimise them - the biggest risk lies in the the two active support groups coming together witha gang mentality ensuing and an altercation taking place where 20+ are involved.

     

    I think we all absolutely agree if something bad happens then it's not good for football, and the implication going forward could be quite bad. But it is the job of the club and FFA and police and security to plan and execute that plan to minimise the risk of issues.

     

    Now you want to talk about what is the RBBs problem? The only thing that is the RBBs problem in all this is how to act/react given the circumstances that you are presented with. I think it is clear that the plan at th memoment is for the RBB (along with others at the home end), are being ASKED to stay behind to allow them to clear the other fans first. The RBB can choose what to do with that request. You can be compliant and remain behind or be noncompliant and leave. They have asked it for a reason - you may not agree with that reason - but remember it's not YOUR problem. The wise thing would be for the RBB to comply with the requests. Why? Because it allows them to execute their plan without the issues raised by the RBB doing their own thing. Because it means the RBB are seen to not be trouble makers but a damn fine active support end.

     

    I am not saying that they have it perfectly right. There is clearly a discussion still going on to try to sort out the issues. They will never please everyone with their plans. Everyone needs to take a big breath and chill and just make sure that we all (RBB members and non-RBB members) are committed to ensuring that we don't escalate any issues to the point where there is trouble.

     

    Well said sir! :good:

    Edited by Borogz
    ge0rge10

    Posted

    In Argentina the home fans are kept in the stadium for about 30 - 40 minutes while the away fans are moved out. It's not unprecedented

    The point is the home fans aren't being held back, just a small section of us! Anyone from the RBB who wants to cause trouble just has to slip into the stands 10 mins before full time and can then walk out with everyone else.

    iinsom20

    Posted

    Thats so retarded...

     

    Hold back the smurfs, why us?

    Jowel

    Posted

    I guess that Hatamoto are expecting more SFC fans than WSW fans in the stadium. This explains their position.

    dongle

    Posted

    if they treat us like criminals, we might as well act like criminals ..... :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

    spectacular291

    Posted

    good work lads, this has been picked up by the beautiful game on facebook, hopefully it gathers more ground!

    Burztur

    Posted

    I think the FFA need to look for a new security provider.

     

    I just hope they don't announce any extended agreement like the recent ones with Nike and Hyundai!

    CaptGrumpy

    Posted

    if they treat us like criminals, we might as well act like criminals ..... :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

     

    [sARCASM ON] Just that attitude needed....well put.....why don't we burn the stadium to the ground....that'll show em [sARCASM OFF]

     

    How are they treating you like a crim? By ASKING you to stick around a little longer so they can clear the rest of the crowd? Geez I would hate to ask anything of you if thats the way you react when you are ASKED to do something.

     

    Seriously ppl, listen to what is being said and take a chill pill.

     

    Have to say I am bit over this chip on ppls shoulder of "No-ones gunna tell us what to do". You aren't 5 year olds, its time some ppl stopped acting like it.

    ATP

    Posted

    I just find this funny, at the end of the day look at what us, the RBB has become! ( an active supporter like myself) i think its a good thing we have been recognized as a risk, NOT becausd we're a bunch of violent supporters but because UNIFIED we stand as solid, passionate & emotional supporters of our club!

     

    Yeah it sux we're being held back till last BUT at least we are being taken serious as a supporters group, a band of brothers with one common intrest-football, NOT drunken violence!

     

     

    If they want to lock us down who cares??

     

    Lets show them what we love so much & chant our asses off for 30mins straight, even when the stadium is empty, because thats what i did round 1 with the rest of the boys untill security told us to go, & il keep chanting untill long after the night is over!

    CaptGrumpy

    Posted

    I just find this funny, at the end of the day look at what us, the RBB has become! ( an active supporter like myself) i think its a good thing we have been recognized as a risk, NOT becausd we're a bunch of violent supporters but because UNIFIED we stand as solid, passionate & emotional supporters of our club!

     

    Yeah it sux we're being held back till last BUT at least we are being taken serious as a supporters group, a band of brothers with one common intrest-football, NOT drunken violence!

     

     

    If they want to lock us down who cares??

     

    Lets show them what we love so much & chant our asses off for 30mins straight, even when the stadium is empty, because thats what i did round 1 with the rest of the boys untill security told us to go, & il keep chanting untill long after the night is over!

    Love the attitude. Well said.

    Benched

    Posted

    I just find this funny, at the end of the day look at what us, the RBB has become! ( an active supporter like myself) i think its a good thing we have been recognized as a risk, NOT becausd we're a bunch of violent supporters but because UNIFIED we stand as solid, passionate & emotional supporters of our club!

     

    Yeah it sux we're being held back till last BUT at least we are being taken serious as a supporters group, a band of brothers with one common intrest-football, NOT drunken violence!

     

     

    If they want to lock us down who cares??

     

    Lets show them what we love so much & chant our asses off for 30mins straight, even when the stadium is empty, because thats what i did round 1 with the rest of the boys untill security told us to go, & il keep chanting untill long after the night is over!

     

    Gold, pure gold.

    marron

    Posted

    They aren't just asking though Grumpy; they are saying, if you leave a public place when they don't want you to they will identify you as a "non-conformist" and then don't clearly say what will happen after that - just this vague threat. Without knowing exactly what they intend to do when a bunch of non-conformists do decide to leave, they will be left with a si

     

    I agree that compliance is going to be the best way for no trouble occuring. But going about it in this way is not going to result in anything good for anyone.

    Erebus

    Posted (edited)

    what does "non-conformist" mean anyway?

    I instantly think of the goth kids in South Park when I hear that in the "you got served" episode.

     

    "I'm such a nonconformist that I'm not going to conform with the rest of you"

    Edited by Erebus
    moxey25

    Posted (edited)

    Interesting.

     

    What can you do? Things will go as usual, chant during the match etc.

    Edited by moxey25
    ATP

    Posted

    Thanks boys, i tell it how it ****ing is, & anyone whos met met at the woolie will say the same!

    dongle

    Posted

    So what is going to happen to me if i decide to leave after the final whistle? i live 1 hour from parra and usually park 20 mins from the stadium, adding another 30 mins to that makes its 2 hours. Do i go on a naughty list? do they take a picture of me, do they rough me up? serious question

    moxey25

    Posted

    So what is going to happen to me if i decide to leave after the final whistle? i live 1 hour from parra and usually park 20 mins from the stadium, adding another 30 mins to that makes its 2 hours. Do i go on a naughty list? do they take a picture of me, do they rough me up? serious question

     

    I think you'll get banned or something lol

    Borogz

    Posted

    So what is going to happen to me if i decide to leave after the final whistle? i live 1 hour from parra and usually park 20 mins from the stadium, adding another 30 mins to that makes its 2 hours. Do i go on a naughty list? do they take a picture of me, do they rough me up? serious question

     

    I think you'll get banned or something lol

     

    More likely you would get a pic taken of you and added to the naughty (non-conformist) list. As Benched said they at the moment only want us to stay and not forcing us.

    usm2011

    Posted

    If you leave they will most likely put you on the Hatamoto Clipboard of faces and names as potential troublemakers for future games. Everybody should just leave the stadium as they please, once you have left the stadium they have no right to touch you

    WanderersFC

    Posted

    10 or 20 seccies cant stop 2500 people from walking out. If our capo's say we go first we will go. Whatever they decide.

    dongle

    Posted

    10 or 20 seccies cant stop 2500 people from walking out. If our capo's say we go first we will go. Whatever they decide.

     

    Agreed :xnod:

    RBBKopite

    Posted

    There is a philosophy in problem solving that says the first question you should ask when trying to solve a problem is "Is this my problem to solve?" The answer here is no. The problem belongs to the club, Hatamoto, police and the FFA. While it is admirable of the fans to be concerned about all of those things you rightly bring up, the simple answer is, it's not our problem. Our problem is what do with the situation presented to us.

     

    For what its worth, I agree, it's not the smartest decision. And I hope that there are no problems, all for the reasons that you give. It would be a shame for the positive vibe for the A-League to be undone by a few dickheads and a bad decision by the powers that be.

    Logic dictates that the two points I've quoted in bold text are, if not one and the same, intricately intertwined and completely co-dependent. One does not exist without the other, so with respect, I put it to you that your logic is flawed and this is very much our problem just as it is the problem of Hatamoto, police and the club/FFA.

    Furthermore, the decision of the RBB to bring this issue to light can only be said to conform to the basic principles of normative ethics. We recognise the flaws in the currently recommended process and we make this matter public to try and help bring about a solution that provides a better, and safer, overall experience for all those attending the derby on Saturday.

     

    In Argentina the home fans are kept in the stadium for about 30 - 40 minutes while the away fans are moved out. It's not unprecedented

    We aren't saying that such practice doesn't occur but you are comparing apples with watermelons by mentioning Argentina. Argentinian football provides a completely different socio-economic and cultural backdrop and the reason for away fans being ushered out of stadia whilst home supporters are held is to try and minimise the amount of bullets that pepper the buses of those away supporters, and the supporters themselves. The key word there is minimise, as Argentina has the sad statistic of seeing dozens of fans die each season by the hand of other fans or the police at or travelling to/from football.

    BigDukes

    Posted

    There is a philosophy in problem solving that says the first question you should ask when trying to solve a problem is "Is this my problem to solve?" The answer here is no. The problem belongs to the club, Hatamoto, police and the FFA. While it is admirable of the fans to be concerned about all of those things you rightly bring up, the simple answer is, it's not our problem. Our problem is what do with the situation presented to us.

     

    For what its worth, I agree, it's not the smartest decision. And I hope that there are no problems, all for the reasons that you give. It would be a shame for the positive vibe for the A-League to be undone by a few dickheads and a bad decision by the powers that be.

    Logic dictates that the two points I've quoted in bold text are, if not one and the same, intricately intertwined and completely co-dependent. One does not exist without the other, so with respect, I put it to you that your logic is flawed and this is very much our problem just as it is the problem of Hatamoto, police and the club/FFA.

    Furthermore, the decision of the RBB to bring this issue to light can only be said to conform to the basic principles of normative ethics. We recognise the flaws in the currently recommended process and we make this matter public to try and help bring about a solution that provides a better, and safer, overall experience for all those attending the derby on Saturday.

     

    In Argentina the home fans are kept in the stadium for about 30 - 40 minutes while the away fans are moved out. It's not unprecedented

    We aren't saying that such practice doesn't occur but you are comparing apples with watermelons by mentioning Argentina. Argentinian football provides a completely different socio-economic and cultural backdrop and the reason for away fans being ushered out of stadia whilst home supporters are held is to try and minimise the amount of bullets that pepper the buses of those away supporters, and the supporters themselves. The key word there is minimise, as Argentina has the sad statistic of seeing dozens of fans die each season by the hand of other fans or the police at or travelling to/from football.

     

    THIS!!




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