International Current Affairs (#BidenIn)

[pseudonym]

^^^

A book related to this:

"Listen Liberal" by Thomas Frank 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/01/books/review/listen-liberal-and-the-limousine-liberal.html

[Smoggy]

 

From Sunday Times

General election: In the blue-collar towns of the northeast the message is being grasped — Labour doesn’t care

The cold up here has proper teeth. It chews through your clothes. It is not the mimsy cold of the south. This is Park End, Middlesbrough, acres of frowsy prewar council semis and scattered windblown dogs, the occasional spicehead staggering about in catatonic oblivion. Middlesbrough is one of Britain’s most deprived towns, the stats show, and Park End is one of its more deprived enclaves. Not the worst, although the margins here are narrow.

Simon Clarke, who is defending the Tory seat he won from Labour in 2017, and his retinue of activists are well wrapped up but also very cheerful, very chipper. Unexpectedly, Park End is providing them with a considerable bounty. Overwhelmingly white British working class, impoverished and tribally, monomaniacally, Labour, Park End is suddenly posting returns of 50% for the Tories. It’s unheard of — but then, in this election British politics are spinning on a very different axis indeed. The normal rules don’t apply.

Clarke was one of the Tory party’s few successes at the last election. Hitherto, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland had always been fairly safely Labour. Clarke nicked it by about 1,000 votes and needs to cling onto it. One suspects he will, maybe increasing his vote. He is drawing in blue-collar voters, who are flocking, not always happily, towards the Tories. At the other end of his ungainly constituency, in the chi-chi (for Teesside) and formerly solidly Tory seaside resort of Saltburn, where I live, Labour posters abound. It’s a world turned upside down.


Can the Tories win in Teesside?

The glib and easy answer is that this is purely down to Brexit and this is the Brexit election. After all, Park End is only the throw of a used hypodermic syringe from Britain’s most pro-leave council ward, Thorntree. Certainly Brexit is in the mix, but it is nowhere near the whole answer. Nor is it simply the Corbyn effect: they’d quite like some free broadband here, frankly. Corbyn may not be popular, but it is his anti-British, leftie liberalism and identity politic that make the voters recoil. They’re OK with the economic stuff; it’s a deeper thing, a realignment in politics that Brexit perhaps laid bare but did not cause.

Two years ago there was a vote for a mayor of the Tees Valley — basically traditionally Labour Teesside plus traditionally Labour Darlington. It was won by a Tory, Ben Houchen, nephew of the great Hartlepool forward Keith Houchen and not the sort of Tory you’d meet for lunch in, say, White’s in London. More recently, Labour control of Middlesbrough council — a given for 100 years — was ended by the independents: an astonishing result. One, Antony High, is now challenging the grizzled and perpetually angry Corbynista Andy McDonald in the Middlesbrough constituency and is in with a shout.

A few months ago I had a great night out in a bar in the old, depressed blue-collar iron-mining town of Skelton — part of the Middlesbrough South constituency — with the recently elected Tory councillor Craig Holmes. A Conservative in Skelton. And a young bloke, too. I liked him a lot. But those three men — Houchen, High and Holmes — would surely have been for Labour as recently as 15 years ago.

All solidly working-class men, all bothered by inequality and in favour of regional investment. But they grasped, as the voters of this wonderful but terribly neglected area are now grasping, that Labour no longer represents them: it is a party for middle-class liberals, especially southern middle-class liberals. And so they have split off — to the Tories, the Brexit Party, the independents, even to the Social Democratic Party. Anything but Labour.

Meanwhile, a regionalism is also at work. Labour has run towns such as Middlesbrough for a century, and its administration has often been characterised by complacency and endemic corruption; hence, eventually, a revolt on the part of the electorate.

This loosening of the tribal working-class affiliation with Labour is spreading. I found the same disillusion with the party among white working-class voters in the Midlands. And, to an admittedly lesser extent, among non-white working-class voters.

What does this mean for the coming general election in Teesside? Quite possibly the gain, by the Tories, of only one seat — Stockton South, where once again the candidate Matt Vickers is harvesting votes not from bourgeois and usually true-blue Yarm, but from the tribally Labour council estates in Thornaby. You might expect Clarke to hang on in Middlesbrough South.

Over the Tees, in vehemently pro-Brexit Hartlepool, the Labour candidate faces a serious challenge from the Brexit Party’s chairman, Richard Tice. Enough to let the Tories through the middle? Probably not. But the neighbouring Tees Valley seats — Darlington and Bishop Auckland — could conceivably go blue. If they do, Boris Johnson is in for a landslide. If, however, Stockton South somehow stays Labour, we’re probably in for a hung parliament.

It’s what happens beyond this election that’s interesting. Will the northeast shrug off Labour, much as America’s southern states shrugged off the Democrats? Will there be a new conduit for those disaffected Labour voters or do they tie themselves, awkwardly, to the party of Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and southern affluence? Or will Labour at last recognise how it is alienating its old voter base? Only when Brexit is out of the way will we find out.

[StringerBellend]

6 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

 

From Sunday Times

General election: In the blue-collar towns of the northeast the message is being grasped — Labour doesn’t care

The cold up here has proper teeth. It chews through your clothes. It is not the mimsy cold of the south. This is Park End, Middlesbrough, acres of frowsy prewar council semis and scattered windblown dogs, the occasional spicehead staggering about in catatonic oblivion. Middlesbrough is one of Britain’s most deprived towns, the stats show, and Park End is one of its more deprived enclaves. Not the worst, although the margins here are narrow.

Simon Clarke, who is defending the Tory seat he won from Labour in 2017, and his retinue of activists are well wrapped up but also very cheerful, very chipper. Unexpectedly, Park End is providing them with a considerable bounty. Overwhelmingly white British working class, impoverished and tribally, monomaniacally, Labour, Park End is suddenly posting returns of 50% for the Tories. It’s unheard of — but then, in this election British politics are spinning on a very different axis indeed. The normal rules don’t apply.

Clarke was one of the Tory party’s few successes at the last election. Hitherto, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland had always been fairly safely Labour. Clarke nicked it by about 1,000 votes and needs to cling onto it. One suspects he will, maybe increasing his vote. He is drawing in blue-collar voters, who are flocking, not always happily, towards the Tories. At the other end of his ungainly constituency, in the chi-chi (for Teesside) and formerly solidly Tory seaside resort of Saltburn, where I live, Labour posters abound. It’s a world turned upside down.


Can the Tories win in Teesside?

The glib and easy answer is that this is purely down to Brexit and this is the Brexit election. After all, Park End is only the throw of a used hypodermic syringe from Britain’s most pro-leave council ward, Thorntree. Certainly Brexit is in the mix, but it is nowhere near the whole answer. Nor is it simply the Corbyn effect: they’d quite like some free broadband here, frankly. Corbyn may not be popular, but it is his anti-British, leftie liberalism and identity politic that make the voters recoil. They’re OK with the economic stuff; it’s a deeper thing, a realignment in politics that Brexit perhaps laid bare but did not cause.

Two years ago there was a vote for a mayor of the Tees Valley — basically traditionally Labour Teesside plus traditionally Labour Darlington. It was won by a Tory, Ben Houchen, nephew of the great Hartlepool forward Keith Houchen and not the sort of Tory you’d meet for lunch in, say, White’s in London. More recently, Labour control of Middlesbrough council — a given for 100 years — was ended by the independents: an astonishing result. One, Antony High, is now challenging the grizzled and perpetually angry Corbynista Andy McDonald in the Middlesbrough constituency and is in with a shout.

A few months ago I had a great night out in a bar in the old, depressed blue-collar iron-mining town of Skelton — part of the Middlesbrough South constituency — with the recently elected Tory councillor Craig Holmes. A Conservative in Skelton. And a young bloke, too. I liked him a lot. But those three men — Houchen, High and Holmes — would surely have been for Labour as recently as 15 years ago.

All solidly working-class men, all bothered by inequality and in favour of regional investment. But they grasped, as the voters of this wonderful but terribly neglected area are now grasping, that Labour no longer represents them: it is a party for middle-class liberals, especially southern middle-class liberals. And so they have split off — to the Tories, the Brexit Party, the independents, even to the Social Democratic Party. Anything but Labour.

Meanwhile, a regionalism is also at work. Labour has run towns such as Middlesbrough for a century, and its administration has often been characterised by complacency and endemic corruption; hence, eventually, a revolt on the part of the electorate.

This loosening of the tribal working-class affiliation with Labour is spreading. I found the same disillusion with the party among white working-class voters in the Midlands. And, to an admittedly lesser extent, among non-white working-class voters.

What does this mean for the coming general election in Teesside? Quite possibly the gain, by the Tories, of only one seat — Stockton South, where once again the candidate Matt Vickers is harvesting votes not from bourgeois and usually true-blue Yarm, but from the tribally Labour council estates in Thornaby. You might expect Clarke to hang on in Middlesbrough South.

Over the Tees, in vehemently pro-Brexit Hartlepool, the Labour candidate faces a serious challenge from the Brexit Party’s chairman, Richard Tice. Enough to let the Tories through the middle? Probably not. But the neighbouring Tees Valley seats — Darlington and Bishop Auckland — could conceivably go blue. If they do, Boris Johnson is in for a landslide. If, however, Stockton South somehow stays Labour, we’re probably in for a hung parliament.

It’s what happens beyond this election that’s interesting. Will the northeast shrug off Labour, much as America’s southern states shrugged off the Democrats? Will there be a new conduit for those disaffected Labour voters or do they tie themselves, awkwardly, to the party of Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and southern affluence? Or will Labour at last recognise how it is alienating its old voter base? Only when Brexit is out of the way will we find out.

The Times is owned by Murdoch 

 

[Neverbloom]

9 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

 

From Sunday Times

General election: In the blue-collar towns of the northeast the message is being grasped — Labour doesn’t care

The cold up here has proper teeth. It chews through your clothes. It is not the mimsy cold of the south. This is Park End, Middlesbrough, acres of frowsy prewar council semis and scattered windblown dogs, the occasional spicehead staggering about in catatonic oblivion. Middlesbrough is one of Britain’s most deprived towns, the stats show, and Park End is one of its more deprived enclaves. Not the worst, although the margins here are narrow.

Simon Clarke, who is defending the Tory seat he won from Labour in 2017, and his retinue of activists are well wrapped up but also very cheerful, very chipper. Unexpectedly, Park End is providing them with a considerable bounty. Overwhelmingly white British working class, impoverished and tribally, monomaniacally, Labour, Park End is suddenly posting returns of 50% for the Tories. It’s unheard of — but then, in this election British politics are spinning on a very different axis indeed. The normal rules don’t apply.

Clarke was one of the Tory party’s few successes at the last election. Hitherto, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland had always been fairly safely Labour. Clarke nicked it by about 1,000 votes and needs to cling onto it. One suspects he will, maybe increasing his vote. He is drawing in blue-collar voters, who are flocking, not always happily, towards the Tories. At the other end of his ungainly constituency, in the chi-chi (for Teesside) and formerly solidly Tory seaside resort of Saltburn, where I live, Labour posters abound. It’s a world turned upside down.


Can the Tories win in Teesside?

The glib and easy answer is that this is purely down to Brexit and this is the Brexit election. After all, Park End is only the throw of a used hypodermic syringe from Britain’s most pro-leave council ward, Thorntree. Certainly Brexit is in the mix, but it is nowhere near the whole answer. Nor is it simply the Corbyn effect: they’d quite like some free broadband here, frankly. Corbyn may not be popular, but it is his anti-British, leftie liberalism and identity politic that make the voters recoil. They’re OK with the economic stuff; it’s a deeper thing, a realignment in politics that Brexit perhaps laid bare but did not cause.

Two years ago there was a vote for a mayor of the Tees Valley — basically traditionally Labour Teesside plus traditionally Labour Darlington. It was won by a Tory, Ben Houchen, nephew of the great Hartlepool forward Keith Houchen and not the sort of Tory you’d meet for lunch in, say, White’s in London. More recently, Labour control of Middlesbrough council — a given for 100 years — was ended by the independents: an astonishing result. One, Antony High, is now challenging the grizzled and perpetually angry Corbynista Andy McDonald in the Middlesbrough constituency and is in with a shout.

A few months ago I had a great night out in a bar in the old, depressed blue-collar iron-mining town of Skelton — part of the Middlesbrough South constituency — with the recently elected Tory councillor Craig Holmes. A Conservative in Skelton. And a young bloke, too. I liked him a lot. But those three men — Houchen, High and Holmes — would surely have been for Labour as recently as 15 years ago.

All solidly working-class men, all bothered by inequality and in favour of regional investment. But they grasped, as the voters of this wonderful but terribly neglected area are now grasping, that Labour no longer represents them: it is a party for middle-class liberals, especially southern middle-class liberals. And so they have split off — to the Tories, the Brexit Party, the independents, even to the Social Democratic Party. Anything but Labour.

Meanwhile, a regionalism is also at work. Labour has run towns such as Middlesbrough for a century, and its administration has often been characterised by complacency and endemic corruption; hence, eventually, a revolt on the part of the electorate.

This loosening of the tribal working-class affiliation with Labour is spreading. I found the same disillusion with the party among white working-class voters in the Midlands. And, to an admittedly lesser extent, among non-white working-class voters.

What does this mean for the coming general election in Teesside? Quite possibly the gain, by the Tories, of only one seat — Stockton South, where once again the candidate Matt Vickers is harvesting votes not from bourgeois and usually true-blue Yarm, but from the tribally Labour council estates in Thornaby. You might expect Clarke to hang on in Middlesbrough South.

Over the Tees, in vehemently pro-Brexit Hartlepool, the Labour candidate faces a serious challenge from the Brexit Party’s chairman, Richard Tice. Enough to let the Tories through the middle? Probably not. But the neighbouring Tees Valley seats — Darlington and Bishop Auckland — could conceivably go blue. If they do, Boris Johnson is in for a landslide. If, however, Stockton South somehow stays Labour, we’re probably in for a hung parliament.

It’s what happens beyond this election that’s interesting. Will the northeast shrug off Labour, much as America’s southern states shrugged off the Democrats? Will there be a new conduit for those disaffected Labour voters or do they tie themselves, awkwardly, to the party of Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and southern affluence? Or will Labour at last recognise how it is alienating its old voter base? Only when Brexit is out of the way will we find out.

[Paul01]

Looks like Trump has lost the Pentagon with regard to legality. 

Trump impeachment: two White House budget officials quit over Ukraine aid concerns, says witness https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/26/trump-impeachment-inquiry-budget-office-lawyer-resigned-ukraine?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[MartinTyler]

9 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

The Times is owned by Murdoch 

 

I think this is the Rod Liddle piece. I watched the video clip on YouTube last night and it really does appear that rank and file labour members in these areas feel let down by their current representatives and are looking elsewhere

[StringerBellend]

16 minutes ago, MartinTyler said:

I think this is the Rod Liddle piece. I watched the video clip on YouTube last night and it really does appear that rank and file labour members in these areas feel let down by their current representatives and are looking elsewhere

If they vote elsewhere than labour in this election  then the UK deserve what it gets 

any protest type vote in this election is basically like shitting in your hotel bed as a protest against bad service and then having to sleep in

Actually worse as not only will they now need to lie in a shatted bed, but that bed will also have Boris Johnson in it 

(I’ve borrowed from ten great Stewart lee here)

im just glad I don’t live there 

Edited November 27, 2019 by StringerBellend

[StringerBellend]

im not much a Corbyn fan, but really do people really think Boris Johnson has their back

The libs have shown they are Torylite and a vote for anyone else under the UK system is throwing your vote away

[MartinTyler]

This election is severely complicated by Brexit. Boris will probably get in but make a complete hash of Brexit with Farage's crowd chipping away from the sidelines. If labour get their act together and ditch Corbyn.

Anyway, Forest have just won 4-0 at QPR so all is good with the world !!

[Smoggy]

No MP or Party has Middlesbroughs back. Years of Labour corruption on Teesside and having its heart ripped out by the Tories has seen to that.

I guess if i left a nothern town in my early to mid childhood, long enough ago for the struggle to become nostalgia and to see money invested in that place while away but be blind to elsewhere...then i perhaps i too could post on here like a condescending know it all ****wit.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Smoggy

[StringerBellend]

4 hours ago, Smoggy said:

No MP or Party has Middlesbroughs back. Years of Labour corruption on Teesside and having its heart ripped out by the Tories has seen to that.

I guess if i left a nothern town in my early to mid childhood, long enough ago for the struggle to become nostalgia and to see money invested in that place while away but be blind to elsewhere...then i perhaps i too could post on here like a condescending know it all ****wit.

Cheers mate

I don’t mean to be a condescending ****wit

 They are both **** options especially for areas like Boro,

But a Boris Johnson government will **** Britain

 

[StringerBellend]

5 hours ago, MartinTyler said:

This election is severely complicated by Brexit. Boris will probably get in but make a complete hash of Brexit with Farage's crowd chipping away from the sidelines. If labour get their act together and ditch Corbyn.

Anyway, Forest have just won 4-0 at QPR so all is good with the world !!

By god that’s grim (part from the forest bit)

 

[pseudonym]

Didn't Farage say that the Brexit Party won't contest seats held by Tories? 

That pretty much gives Boris the majority required for Brexit 

[MartinTyler]

55 minutes ago, pseudonym said:

Didn't Farage say that the Brexit Party won't contest seats held by Tories? 

That pretty much gives Boris the majority required for Brexit 

No that's not quite enough...hence why they currently have a 'pact' with the Ulster mob

[Smoggy]

2 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

Cheers mate

I don’t mean to be a condescending ****wit

 They are both **** options especially for areas like Boro,

But a Boris Johnson government will **** Britain

 

Apologies...i dont know why i am being so grumpy...its just not like me at all...

The choice between Boris and Corbyn does make me genuinely angry though in a way that i wouldnt usually be over politics. Antisemitic chunt or an anti muslim one...both are loathsome in many other ways besides.

There will be no Britain / UK after Brexit...or after Corbyn wins and becomes the SNP's bitch.

More belt tightening and cuts under the Tories or bankruptcy under Corbyn..no sensible inbetween.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Smoggy

[Smoggy]

7 hours ago, MartinTyler said:

This election is severely complicated by Brexit. Boris will probably get in but make a complete hash of Brexit with Farage's crowd chipping away from the sidelines. If labour get their act together and ditch Corbyn.

Anyway, Forest have just won 4-0 at QPR so all is good with the world !!

Boro even beat Barnsley so i should be in a better mood.

[Smoggy]

1 hour ago, MartinTyler said:

No that's not quite enough...hence why they currently have a 'pact' with the Ulster mob

The Ulster lot wont back his Brexit deal next year still. And while the Brexit Party may pick up a few seats it  wouldn"t be enough and they prob wouldn't back the deal either as it is too soft a Brexit for them. But who knows how many independents there will be after this election.

Boris needs a Tory majority to get Brexit through without the Ulster or Brexit Party mob.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Smoggy

[StringerBellend]

3 hours ago, Smoggy said:

Apologies...i dont know why i am being so grumpy...its just not like me at all...

The choice between Boris and Corbyn does make me genuinely angry though in a way that i wouldnt usually be over politics. Antisemitic chunt or an anti muslim one...both are loathsome in many other ways besides.

There will be no Britain / UK after Brexit...or after Corbyn wins and becomes the SNP's bitch.

More belt tightening and cuts under the Tories or bankruptcy under Corbyn..no sensible inbetween.

My issue with Corbyn is that he is turned what should be an unlossable election into a close run loss (at best)
 

in part by not addressing what people give a **** about enough, and instead talking about renationalising stuff when it’s not something that people necessarily want 

[pseudonym]

 

[StringerBellend]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-called-working-class-20981604?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mirror_main
 

He’s a total

twat

[Cynth]

7 hours ago, Bones said:

How does everyone feel seeing people in Hong Kong fighting for the basic rights they were given through colonial rule and defending the Union Jack? 

Are you asking for "feelings" or thoughts?

Feelings: interested, fascinated. concerned. 

[StringerBellend]

10 hours ago, Bones said:

From 1995? Geez that’s drawing a long bow.

Do you think his opinion of working class people has changed that much? 

Maybe he has had some sort of epiphany? 

 

[StringerBellend]

10 hours ago, Bones said:

How does everyone feel seeing people in Hong Kong fighting for the basic rights they were given through colonial rule and defending the Union Jack? 

Talking of long bows

[wendybr]

11 hours ago, Bones said:

From 1995? Geez that’s drawing a long bow.

Lol.

He probably doesn't think any differently, even tho he said it 20+ yeasrs ago.

[StringerBellend]

24 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Lol.

He probably doesn't think any differently, even tho he said it 20+ yeasrs ago.

His policies suggest he hasn’t changed his mind,

but oh bless him he has a funny hair cut and says funny things, which seems enough to get votes these days

article might be old, but it is probably a better window into his soul (or lack of) than what he will say now

The justification of it gets me, dismissed as it’s old. 
 

the support for those populist figures, surely at some level they know that they know in the event of a fire they wouldn’t piss on them unless there was a vote in it 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by StringerBellend

[pseudonym]

2 hours ago, wendybr said:

Lol.

He probably doesn't think any differently, even tho he said it 20+ yeasrs ago.

He probably didn't think he would ever be Prime Minister 20 years ago

through twists and turns he ended up in the job

[StringerBellend]

12 minutes ago, Bones said:

Do you still think in the same way you did 20 yrs ago? It’s a long time. 

Fair point, No, not about all things my mind changes as you experience new things, as information comes in... but not sure my core values have shifted that much

Im sure, BoJo has changed his mind on somethings, he has on Brexit multiple times, hey if there is a vote in it he’ll change his mind.

 

But Im doubting BoJos core values have shifted that much, the article shows he didn’t care much for working class and he sneered at those worse of than himself or from different social classes. Do you think he’s changed their at his core? Really?

He’s a bullingdon club, upper class twit, who’s in it for himself he was 20 years ago and he is now 

[wendybr]

19 minutes ago, Bones said:

Do you still think in the same way you did 20 yrs ago? It’s a long time. 

Core values persist, generally.

Arrogance and elitist attitudes are probably fairly ingrained...

His background would have reinforced it I imagine ( not that know or can bear the thought of finding out anthing about him).

[StringerBellend]

2 minutes ago, pseudonym said:

He probably didn't think he would ever be Prime Minister 20 years ago

through twists and turns he ended up in the job

No He did, the born to rule Bullingdon Club Mofo 

 

• Boris Johnson, Prime Minister (2019–present), Foreign Secretary (2016–2018) and Mayor of London (2008–2016)^[61]
• Jeremy Hunt, Foreign Secretary (2018–2019), Health Secretary (2012–2018) and Culture Secretary (2010–2012)^[62][63]
• David Cameron, Prime Minister (2010–2016)^[61]
• Cecil Rhodes, Prime Minister of the Cape Colony (1890–1896)^[16]
• Michael Ancram, Chairman of the Conservative Party (1998–2001)^[64]
• Charles Douglas-Home, 12th Earl of Home, Lord Lieutenant of Lanarkshire (1890–1915) and Lord Lieutenant of Berwickshire (1879–1880)
• Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Grey of Fallodon, Foreign Secretary (1905–1916)
• Lord Halifax, Chancellor of the University of Oxford (1933–1959), Ambassador to the United States (1940–1946) Foreign Secretary (1938–1940), Leader of the House of Lords (1935–1938, 1940), Secretary of State for War (1935) and 20th Viceroy of India (1926–1931)
• George Osborne, First Secretary of State(2015–2016) and Chancellor of the Exchequer (2010–2016)^[61]
• Lord Randolph Churchill,^[65] Chancellor of the Exchequer (1886)
• John Profumo, CBE, Secretary of State for War (1960–1963)
• Radosław Sikorski, Minister of Foreign Affairsof Poland (2007–2014)^[66]
• Alan Clark, Minister for Defence Procurement(1989–1992)
• Thomas Agar-Robartes, MP (1906, 1908–1915)^[67]
• Nick Hurd, Government Minister (2010–2019)^[68]
• Jo Johnson, Government Minister (2014–2019) and Director of the Number 10 Policy Unit (2013–2015)
• Tim Rathbone, MP (1974–1997)^[29]
• Thomas Assheton Smith the Younger, High Sheriff of Wiltshire (1838) and MP (1821–1831, 1832–1837)^[3]
• Sir Ewen Fergusson, British Ambassador to France (1987–1992) and British Ambassador to South Africa (1982–1984)^[69]
• Sir Hugh Munro-Lucas-Tooth, MP (1924–1929, 1945–1970)

[StringerBellend]

22 minutes ago, Bones said:

Do you still think in the same way you did 20 yrs ago? It’s a long time. 

Do you think he doesn’t? really