The History Thread

[Guest ZipGunBop]

Lord Marron!

 

This grain growing peasant refuses to allow you to take his bride into your bed on the first night of their union.

 

I shall take his head to protect your honour.

 

My liege.

[Guest ZipGunBop]

Stephen Fry re - descendants.

 

[marron]

Yeah. Of course his calculations don't take inbreeding into account. Probably hundreds of those ancestors he counts are just the same guy. Anyway, the sentiment is right. We're all related somehow!

[braad]

 

 

Great grandfather was lighthorse in WW1. Really really wish i knew more!

Braad, can give you some guidance how to find out more if interested. Sites like the National Library of Australia and AWM have great resources for research. Documents like his service record and his unit's history/diary would probably be on file with these sites.

I was told today that my grandma found her fathers diaries from WW1, and she's going to pass them to me. If so, im quite interested in reading them!

 

 

As for that asbestos talk, its horrible. There's asbestosis, lung cancer and mesothelioma. The first case of it was pre WW2 and IIRC it was a female. The next one will be silicosis from concrete dust

[ManfredSchaefer]

More History talk

 

Today is the 164th anniversary of the explorer Edward Eyre reaching Albany after traversing the Nullabor. Now in itself that is an interesting little nugget of Australian history trivia, however I was wondering if he (and others of his ilk, such as Mitchell, Stuart, Kennedy, Leichhardt, Oxley, Cunningham etc) are still taught or spoken of in schools. When I was a kid the explorers of the 18th and 19th century who navigated Australia's coast or opened up the interior were the subject of quite a bit of Aussie history in school. Of course there was and I suspect still is a bit of knowledge out there re Burke & Wills, but as for the others I wonder if they have to varying degrees become ignored or less interesting as changes in school history curricula foci have happened. Plus, dare I say that imperial expeditions that to some extent led to dispossession of the indigenous peoples has become politically incorrect as the subject of school history.

[wendybr]

Stephen Fry re - descendants.

 

 

Thanks for posting that Zip...

After watching your clip,  I clicked on  Stephen Fry debating in the negative (Intelligence squared debate)  against the topic "That the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world" ....so, so  powerful, so passionate, so articulate, so intelligent....what an amazing person he is! Touches on history, morality...well worth watching for anyone with  a spare 20 minutes....hope I'm not skating on thin ice here (no discussion of religion on the forums etc, Don't intend adding anything else) 

[JackDoff]

7th July '57, some Neville called Pealy or Pele made his international debut vs Argentina , scoring in his teams 2-1 loss.He was 16yrs 9months old at the time, bit of a late starter.Anyway, didn't end up doing much more in his football career.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HungHuynh]

And then China protests every time Japan bring out a textbook which whitewashes the past.

Bunch of hypocrites themselves. They too whitewashes their histories and all other political works that potentially be the downfall to their political party.

 

I love their histories dates around the warring periods. The history still got lots more to be uncovered as new artefact contradict previous writings.

[Burztur]

Without a doubt. Everyone tries to rewrite history in their favour.

 

Sounds like an essay question.

[Wobblies]

RIP; Alfredo Di Stefano 4/7/1926 - 7/7/2014 age 88.

[ManfredSchaefer]

Without a doubt. Everyone tries to rewrite history in their favour.

 

Sounds like an essay question.

 

If I ever had any pretensions to teaching history it would be my mantra to always have a sceptical eye on your sources. Having spent several years trawling through innumerable classical history texts from sources as wide as Herodotus through to St Augustine the overriding discipline that one develops is an awareness of how historical 'fact' can be shaped by innumerable influences both personal and public. Throw in the vagaries of translating from one language to another, or trying to ascertain the value of oral and folk history versus literary history, well it's a fascinating pursuit.

 

Just as an aside, next time there is a film on TV about ancient Rome watch how the roles of the heroes are almost almost given to an American actor, whilst that of the imperial Roman 'bad guy' is given to a Brit. Even in such a populist and ill-informed genre of history as the epic film it's amazing how often Hollywood's American cultural imperative sees the need for the oppressor to speak with an English accent (e.g. Oliver's Crassus in 'Spartacus', O'Toole's Silva in 'Masada' etc etc). It's another semi-conscious way of history being 'written' in someone's favour.

 

That's another reason why for all its faults 'Rome' was the best expression of popular ancient history I've ever seen on TV (i.e. there was little of the American bias in casting).

[ManfredSchaefer]

A nugget of historical trivia that I can remember from my childhood...

 

11th July 1979: Skylab tumbles back to Earth

The US space laboratory, Skylab I, plunged to Earth this evening scattering debris across the southern Indian Ocean and sparsely populated Western Australia.

 

And, thanks to some entrepreneurial West Australians the remains of Skylab were then displayed at the 1979 Miss Universe contest:

 

 

No two ways about it..the 70s were a farked-up weird time in Australia 

[JackDoff]

11/07/66 England plays out a 0-0 draw with Uruguay in the opening game of the WC. Can they go on to win the WC? Stay tuned!

[ManfredSchaefer]

With the false flag loons coming out of the woodwork in the last 24-48 hours here's an episode from history that reminds us all that when you have someone spruiking a government conspiracy is happening it is all predicated on an efficient government (an oxymoron if there ever was one).

 

Immediately prior to the German invasion of Poland on 1st September 1939 various members of the Nazi intelligence elite including Heydrich, Muller and Naujocks formulated a plan for an 'attack' on a German radio station near the border with Poland, at a place called Gleiwitz/Gliwice. The basics of the story are here on Wikipedia however a more fulsome account is in the book 'Kommando' by James Lucas.

 

The bottom line was that after German agents dressed in Polish uniforms stormed the radio station, they found that the ability to actually broadcast their anti-German provocative message was hampered by a lack of microphones and antennae, and even when that problem was solved and the mission completed, when SD chief Reinhard Heydrich was told of the false flag op's success, he denied he had heard the broadcast even though he had been tuned to the station's frequency. It was discovered that due to the low power of the transmitter the German false flag broadcast was not heard beyond the few peasants who lived nearby. No one had actually listened to the provocative act...

 

Now yes, it could well be argued that in this day and age people are far more educated and sophisticated when it comes to their techniques of subversive activity on behalf of governments, using an amazing panoply of equipment to form what the Russians called Maskirovka (something that ex-KGB agent Vladimir Putin would have been thoroughly indoctrinated in). Yet as shown by the Gleiwitz incident, or for that matter a dozen other failures of governments to protect secrets, those in power can be bumbling idiots incapable of completing the Machiavellian conspiracies that the credulous credit them with...

[westofcentre]

Yes this happens.

 

Thete has been a couple of documented incidents.

 

A grpup of renegade Turkish Soldiers planning terrorist attacks on their own people in order to blame it on Greece and bring down their own Islamic Govt.

 

One can only imagine the nationalistic frenzy that would have been whipped up on both sides of the Aegean all based on a falsehood.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/16/turkish-officers-trial-coup-plot

[ColdRock]

I saw something similar where the CIA contacted the mafia to organise a hit on Castro. Intelligence resumed when they remembered the mafia does nothing for free. When Bobby K of the FBI was told about it he began tirelessly trying to destroy the mafia in the interest of national security. The mafia made a deal with JFK to make him president if his brother backed off. JFK didn't keep his side of the deal. The rest is splattered on Jackie Onasis' dress

[zola]

I saw something similar where the CIA contacted the mafia to organise a hit on Castro. Intelligence resumed when they remembered the mafia does nothing for free. When Bobby K of the FBI was told about it he began tirelessly trying to destroy the mafia in the interest of national security. The mafia made a deal with JFK to make him president if his brother backed off. JFK didn't keep his side of the deal. The rest is splattered on Jackie Onasis' dress

 

Wot?

[ManfredSchaefer]

 

I saw something similar where the CIA contacted the mafia to organise a hit on Castro. Intelligence resumed when they remembered the mafia does nothing for free. When Bobby K of the FBI was told about it he began tirelessly trying to destroy the mafia in the interest of national security. The mafia made a deal with JFK to make him president if his brother backed off. JFK didn't keep his side of the deal. The rest is splattered on Jackie Onasis' dress

 

Wot?

 

 

Zola, the JFK assassination is to conspiracy theorists what the World Cup is to perves who like to see girls in the crowd...

[zola]

 

 

I saw something similar where the CIA contacted the mafia to organise a hit on Castro. Intelligence resumed when they remembered the mafia does nothing for free. When Bobby K of the FBI was told about it he began tirelessly trying to destroy the mafia in the interest of national security. The mafia made a deal with JFK to make him president if his brother backed off. JFK didn't keep his side of the deal. The rest is splattered on Jackie Onasis' dress

 

Wot?

 

 

Zola, the JFK assassination is to conspiracy theorists what the World Cup is to perves who like to see girls in the crowd...

 

 

Fair call. 

[westofcentre]

 

I saw something similar where the CIA contacted the mafia to organise a hit on Castro. Intelligence resumed when they remembered the mafia does nothing for free. When Bobby K of the FBI was told about it he began tirelessly trying to destroy the mafia in the interest of national security. The mafia made a deal with JFK to make him president if his brother backed off. JFK didn't keep his side of the deal. The rest is splattered on Jackie Onasis' dress

 

 

Wot?

I know the mafia had associations with JFK - it was their peak of influence at that level - I thought it was more through Frank Sinatra though (and his influence on the President).

 

The US army and CIA has historical links with the mafia - they used the mafia to help overthrow the facists during WW2.

[ManfredSchaefer]

 

 

I saw something similar where the CIA contacted the mafia to organise a hit on Castro. Intelligence resumed when they remembered the mafia does nothing for free. When Bobby K of the FBI was told about it he began tirelessly trying to destroy the mafia in the interest of national security. The mafia made a deal with JFK to make him president if his brother backed off. JFK didn't keep his side of the deal. The rest is splattered on Jackie Onasis' dress

 

Wot?

I know the mafia had associations with JFK - it was their peak of influence at that level - I thought it was more through Frank Sinatra though (and his influence on the President).

 

The US army and CIA has historical links with the mafia - they used the mafia to help overthrow the facists during WW2.

 

 

The CIA wasn't around prior to the end of WWII, however its predecessor the OSS and other US agencies supposedly had some discussions with the mob in the US, specifically Lucky Luciano's aligned gangs, in an effort to try and obtain assistance from the Sicilian mafia during Operation Husky (the 1943 invasion of Sicily).

 

The OSS was an interesting organisation, and arguably far less rooted in the 'dirty tricks' synonymous with secret service agencies nowadays.  For anyone interested in the changing nature of American intelligence agencies look up 'Wild Bill' Donovan, and his relationship with the leader of the then Viet Minh, Ho Chi Minh in the period between the defeat of the Japanese and the beginning of the French Indochinese War

[jocosmic]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already and I couldn't be fuccked sifting through the pages, but has anybody seen the doc series Apocalypse: The Second World War and World War 1? It's on Nat Geo and is highly recommended.

[JackDoff]

6/8/1945 Hiroshima

[Guest ZipGunBop]

6/8/1945 Hiroshima

Saved lives.

 

Believe it or not.

[JackDoff]

 

6/8/1945 Hiroshima

Saved lives.

Believe it or not.

That's one way of looking at it I guess.Yanks just wanted to show the world ie Communists n Nazis , they were the strongest.

[westofcentre]

 

6/8/1945 Hiroshima

Saved lives.

 

Believe it or not.

 

Teleological ethics.

 

If we all behaved to a desirable ethical standard there would be no need for it. 

[Guest ZipGunBop]

Every man woman and child on the island(s) was prepared to fight to the death.

 

Hiroshima forced the Japanese emporer to show his face and tell the people to lay down their arms.

 

Had the AXIS powers had nukes, I can guarantee they wouldn't have stopped after dropping only 2 of them.

[TehSmileyBandit]

Every man woman and child on the island(s) was prepared to fight to the death.

 

Hiroshima forced the Japanese emporer to show his face and tell the people to lay down their arms.

 

Had the AXIS powers had nukes, I can guarantee they wouldn't have stopped after dropping only 2 of them.

 

You can guarantee? Can you show me the stats/facts that lead you to this assertion?

[westofcentre]

 

Every man woman and child on the island(s) was prepared to fight to the death.

 

Hiroshima forced the Japanese emporer to show his face and tell the people to lay down their arms.

 

Had the AXIS powers had nukes, I can guarantee they wouldn't have stopped after dropping only 2 of them.

 

You can guarantee? Can you show me the stats/facts that lead you to this assertion?

 

This is the problem with Teleological ethics.

 

You hit the nail on the head. That and the fact you are committing an immoral act to achieve a (seemingly) just end. 

[JackDoff]

Every man woman and child on the island(s) was prepared to fight to the death.

Hiroshima forced the Japanese emporer to show his face and tell the people to lay down their arms.

Had the AXIS powers had nukes, I can guarantee they wouldn't have stopped after dropping only 2 of them.

Civilians fighting to the death is akin to punching a wet paper bag! The Yanks already had control by that stage, they just wanted a swift end n to flex some muscle.Tokyo n other major centres had been bombed to shiit for about 2 years before this.Anyways , it's always the civilians that cop it worse.