The History Thread

[marron]

 

Yep.

 

A nice little exemplar of how little things become hard facts.

Put a whole bunch of little things together and a myth can become hard truth.

 

I always remember one of the most brilliant examples of history teaching from one of my teachers in High School.

 

He got us to stand in a circle and gave one student a couple of sentences, and he had to pass it onto the next one. The next student had to repeat the exact words to the next one and so on until it got to the first person who started the recitation.

 

Of course it had changed so much by that time it was almost entirely different...thus indicating that when it comes to historical sources what may have been the original meaning, words, intent or language can and does change, thus making it vital to apply as much textual criticism you can. Throw in my years studying ancient history where that kind of approach must be paramount, and I have every respect for the detective work done by the article's writers.

 

Having said that it was also insightful that whilst attempting to reassert validity to the actual words from Attaturk, the article appropriately addressed the mythical nature of the quote's historicity within the culture context of Australian/Turkish relations.

 

Here's one of my favourite things that I do. Usually in week 1 with year 7. Basically I get another teacher or sometimes a senior student to come into the class and cause a scene. They yell at me and go nuts about something or other. I've had one bloke turn over a desk and threaten me and all sorts of good stuff (as a method actor I require that I don't know what they are going to do ). Then when they've left I tell the bright little bunnies that this is hugely serious and they need to write incident reports so I can take them to the principal. So off they go. I wander round the room looking stressed and after 5-10 minutes start to ask questions and get them to read out their reports which every time vary considerably in terms of what they remember happening. After 5 or 10 minutes of me grilling them "hang on - what did he say exactly? You said he said this, but so and so is saying different" - they no longer are sure about what the hell happened. I've managed to convince them of all sorts in the past as well, things that never actually happened but through a little suggestion and confirmation they start to believe. It usually turns out that someone comes late or is away and I get them to sort through all the reports and try and sort out what happened as well.

[wendybr]

Hahaha...I've done something similar a few times in the past... staging some "Incident" with another teacher in front of a class, and getting students to write reports...except it was for senior English, in a module called Truth and Representation.

 

Same point being made.  The whole class gets to see and hear exactly the same event, and they get to record it instantly...but the diversity of perspectives on the "truth' of what happened, and the way it has been reported/represented is always very interesting

[ManfredSchaefer]

Want to share the histories of a few iconic servicemen and women whose lives and achievements I find fascinating and dare I say inspirational:

 

Teddy Sheean (RAN, World War II)

 

Teddy Sheean served as a gunner on the RAN corvette HMAS Armidale during World War Two. In December 1942 the Armidale was involved in operations off the island of Timor when she was attacked by Japanese aircraft, who repeatedly bombed and strafed her. Without air cover Sheean was one of the men who fired back at the attackers, his Oerlikon AA gun being one of three that defended the ship. Sadly , even though he brought down one Japanese warplane the Armidale was so badly damaged she began to sank. Even with his ship going under beneath him, Sheean kept firing his gun even as the Armidale slipped under the waves. To my mind this man deserved a VC, and whilst he has a current RAN sub named after him his valour hasn't been justly recognised.

 

Captain Reg Saunders

 

Reg Saunders was an indigenous man whose family had already seen members serve with the Australian army, at a time when Aboriginals were neither citizens of this country nor supposed to be allowed into military service. Saunders worked his way up the ranks whilst serving with the 6th Division in North Africa and Greece, and after the fall of Crete he was forced to hide from the Germans after being left behind when the island was evacuated. Rescued then returned to Australia, he served in New Gunea before becoming the first indigenous commissioned officer in the Australian Army. His military career continued into the Korean War, where as a captain he commanded a company of 3 RAR, fighting at the decisive Battle of Kapyong (which was fought on the eve of Anzac Day, 1951). After leaving the army he eventually became a liaison officer with the Office of Aboriginal Affairs.

 

Vivian Bullwinkel

 

Captain Vivian Bullwinkel was a qualified nurse originally from South Australia who served with the 2/13 AGH during the Malayan campaign of late 1941/early 1942. As Singapore was about to fall she and other nurses of her unit shipped out on the SS Vyner Brooke, which unfortunately was sunk near Banka Island. Surviving the ship's sinking she and other servicemen and women made their way to Radju Beach. As a member of a party of 22 nurses and various soldiers she was captured by the Japanese, who proceeded to first kill the men, then they forced the nurses to walk into the water, machine gunning them from behind. Miraculously Bullwinkel survived, and after 12 days hiding from the Japanese with a mortally wounded soldier, she surrendered again. An eye witness to the war crime, she was able to survive the war after 3 1/2 years in captivity, then left the service in 1947.

[Nnnnnathan12]

Random thought,

25th April in 1915 was on a Sunday.

 

This is back in the time when the majority of the population probably went to church on Sunday's and it was perceived as the 'holy' day for Christians.

 

Did they attack on the Sunday morning in an attempt to catch the Turks off guard because they may of thought that the Anzacs won't attack because it's a Sunday?

[ManfredSchaefer]

Random thought,

25th April in 1915 was on a Sunday.

 

This is back in the time when the majority of the population probably went to church on Sunday's and it was perceived as the 'holy' day for Christians.

 

Did they attack on the Sunday morning in an attempt to catch the Turks off guard because they may of thought that the Anzacs won't attack because it's a Sunday?

 

Would have to check but I don;t expect so. Any kind of amphibious landing is usually dependent upon the weather and tides, plus the intelligence on where and how the enemy are located near the disembarkation. My expectation would be (without having the chance to check my resources) is that Hamilton and the naval commanders near Gallipoli before 25th April would've looked for the lowest tide and best weather. Throw in the considerations of making sure the men weren't on the boats for too long and whatever aerial reconnaissance and intelligence told them about where the Turks were, any kind of reference to Sunday being the Christian day of rest & worship would've (in my opinion) been negligible.

[Nnnnnathan12]

But didn't they screw up the landing because of the tides anyway??

[hawks2767]

Manfred - I served on HMAS Sheean a few years ago, we took the submarine to Devonport and had a service with his family present, there are copies of his medals hanging up and a copy of his last letter home onboard, really hits home how brave his act was.

 

First vessel in the history of the Commonwealth to be named after a sailor.

[ManfredSchaefer]

But didn't they screw up the landing because of the tides anyway??

Not 100% sure but yes, I believe that was the case. Also I'm not too sure the maps were that accurate, and as for training the coxswains on the landing boats or the soldiers themselves in amphibious operations, I would expect there was minimal experience. The Dardanelles campaign was hardly fought with the best technology, the most skilled commanders and with experienced troops...it was nowhere near as well run as say the landings in Siciliy, in Normandy, in the Pacific or at Inchon 30-35 years later.

 

Certainly the failures before and during the landing facilitated the failure of the campaign.

[pseudonym]

Here's a link to audio recordings of people reading letters from Australian WW1 servicemen

 

It's linked to the charity Legacy

 

http://lettersofgallipoli.com/

[Smoggy]

A relative of ours was in a trench at Gallipoli when a shell exploded near them and buried them in the trench, 2 days they were stuck in there apparently. Only him and one other got out alive.

 

His foot / leg was severely injured (nearly lost it) and he was sent back to Australia and did war effort paperwork for the remainder as was declared not fit to return to active duty. He was one of the lucky ones. 

[pseudonym]

Aus History Podcast

 

The ABC is broadcasting a small series of podcasts about early Australian (colonial) history called Rum, Rebels and Ratbags

 

https://m.soundcloud.com/rum-rebels-ratbags

Edited June 3, 2015 by pseudonym

[ManfredSchaefer]

Aus History Podcast

 

The ABC is broadcasting a small series of podcasts about early Australian (colonial) history called Rum, Rebels and Ratbags

 

https://m.soundcloud.com/rum-rebels-ratbags

 

Looks interesting...might have to download

[Guest ZipGunBop]

http://youtu.be/SyXcUMftRs8

[ManfredSchaefer]

Argh...the History Channel...the same Pay TV mob that can put on something reasonable as 'Dogfights' or 'Hitler's Henchmen', and then follows up with 'Ancient Aliens' and 'The Conspiracy Show'.

[wendybr]

Didn't know where to put this...for wider exposure than it will get over on the Music Thread. 

 

Dino Presinger posted this over there. 

 

I loved the music ... but then started to look at the accompanying footage.

 

From some of Thomas Edison's early films apparently.

 

Well worth a viewing or two.......early 20th Century???? A delight!

 

[pseudonym]

40th anniversary of the Whitlam dismissal today

 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/new-revelations-about-the-dismissal-continue-to-emerge-after-40-years-20151023-gkhb1a.html

 

A new book about the dismissal by Jenny Hocking was released recently

[ManfredSchaefer]

40th anniversary of the Whitlam dismissal today

 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/new-revelations-about-the-dismissal-continue-to-emerge-after-40-years-20151023-gkhb1a.html

 

A new book about the dismissal by Jenny Hocking was released recently

 

Paul Kelly has written possibly the seminal account of The Dismissal, but the new revelations about Kerr and Fraser are most interesting.

 

I can just recall the event itself...was heading to a school event when the news broke on the bus via the radio. Most of us were too young to get the meaning of it all, but for anyone who grew up in the second half of the 70s the huge clash between the 'Shame Fraser Shame/Sack Kerr' folk and the 'Turn the Lights On' Coalition supporters was omnipresent. 

 

And just in case this was too serious, there was Norman Gunston to lighten the mood:

 

 

[JackDoff]

 

40th anniversary of the Whitlam dismissal today

 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/new-revelations-about-the-dismissal-continue-to-emerge-after-40-years-20151023-gkhb1a.html

 

A new book about the dismissal by Jenny Hocking was released recently

 

 

Paul Kelly has written possibly the seminal account of The Dismissal, but the new revelations about Kerr and Fraser are most interesting.

 

I can just recall the event itself...was heading to a school event when the news broke on the bus via the radio. Most of us were too young to get the meaning of it all, but for anyone who grew up in the second half of the 70s the huge clash between the 'Shame Fraser Shame/Sack Kerr' folk and the 'Turn the Lights On' Coalition supporters was omnipresent. 

 

And just in case this was too serious, there was Norman Gunston to lighten the mood:

 

 

I miss Norman! Those were the days....

[Smoggy]

Lol, great hairstyle that reporter has, 'I'm not bald honest' the good old comb over.

[JackDoff]

Lol, great hairstyle that reporter has, 'I'm not bald honest' the good old comb over.

Look closely at his face.... bits of toilet paper for his shaving cuts!!!

[marron]

Anyone listen to "hardcore history" podcasts?

 

Good story teller. They're all hours long. Been meaning to for ages but only just started, listened to one on Cyrus the great this week (king of kings).

[Smoggy]

Anyone listen to "hardcore history" podcasts?

 

Good story teller. They're all hours long. Been meaning to for ages but only just started, listened to one on Cyrus the great this week (king of kings).

 

nahhhh I never get deeper than horrible histories these days, love that show.... how the first world war started horrible history style 

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by WSWBoro

[Nnnnnathan12]

Had a conversation at work today that got me thinking, 
Talking about the whole Australia Day vs Invasion Day arguement, union jack on the flag, monarchy vs rebpublic etc.....

I made the point that yes what the British colonials did was bad, but if it wasn't the British, it would've been the Spanish, Dutch, French, Germans etc...

Whatever european country eventually settled here it probably would've been the same or very similar.

So, lets say for arguments sake we were settled by the Spanish,
A) did the Spanish have a track record of abusing the native people in the colonies that they settled like the British in Australia?
B) How much of a different country do we become with a lack of involvement in World War 1 and 2 being a Spanish Territory?

What if we somehow settled by the Germans?
A) How much does that affect the pacific war in WW2 with us being a Japanese ally and giving the Japanese a base to control the southern pacific ocean against America?

[Guest BlackSpy]

Revisionism is rife in current year.

 

Good and bad are subjective terms.

[ManfredSchaefer]

Had a conversation at work today that got me thinking, 

Talking about the whole Australia Day vs Invasion Day arguement, union jack on the flag, monarchy vs rebpublic etc.....

 

I made the point that yes what the British colonials did was bad, but if it wasn't the British, it would've been the Spanish, Dutch, French, Germans etc...

 

Whatever european country eventually settled here it probably would've been the same or very similar.

 

So, lets say for arguments sake we were settled by the Spanish,

A) did the Spanish have a track record of abusing the native people in the colonies that they settled like the British in Australia?

B) How much of a different country do we become with a lack of involvement in World War 1 and 2 being a Spanish Territory?

 

What if we somehow settled by the Germans?

A) How much does that affect the pacific war in WW2 with us being a Japanese ally and giving the Japanese a base to control the southern pacific ocean against America?

 

A few thoughts.

 

First off, re the Spanish. Spanish colonial policy in South & Central America and the Philippines was essentially exploitative, and during the pre-Bolivar era in what became Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Argentina etc there was a consistent policy of exploiting whatever resources they could no matter the local inhabitants' cost. This ranged from simple economic exploitation (stealing of precious gems and metals, mining, large land holdings, exporting valuable products such as cacao etc), to cultural, social, racial and political imperialism. From the disenfranchising of natives, coercive or unplanned racial changes (e.g. slaves, cross-breeding between natives and colonisers), the destruction of previously establishing property rights Jesuit-led Catholicism etc the Spaniards made damned sure they did what they could either overtly or covertly to destroy the pre-Colombian world. In the Philippines there were similar activities and processes, though to some extent it was moderated or changed by both the nature of when and how the Spaniards occupied the archipelago, as well as the disparity in wealth between that colonial fiefdom and the larger, more enriching lands of the western hemisphere.

 

If one was to compare the Hispanic Imperialist period during its height, from say 1500 through to 1800, with that of the 2nd British empire (i.e that period after the American revolution through to Australian Federation), each imperial power has an egregious history of abusing and destroying indigenous peoples. It may be argued that the only differences are the motivations, degrees of destruction, and scale. As much as one would like to argue for a relativist argument, such as which power was more destructive, or who did more damage, frankly it can't be done (especially for me with my limited knowledge).

 

As for other European countries and their potential impact on the indigenous Australians, or the development of colonies on this continent instead of the British, the most instructive manner one could draw some conclusions would be to view other experiences in the local region. The French in what was Indochina were both rapacious in their policies towards exploiting the local peoples and resources, however they also endeavoured to interpolate their culture, their beliefs into the existing societies. A classic example of this is the Cao Dai sect, which is a very unique Vietnamese religious response to French colonialism, where figures as disparate as Jesus, Buddha and Louis Pasteur are given religious devotion. It might be (and this is getting into alt.history territory here) that if the French has colonised Australia there would have been a similar degree of assimilation. If one was to go by the African or South Pacific context the French may have even attempted to make Australia into a part of metropolitan France (as Algeria once was and as New Caledonia is).

 

I can't speak too much for the Dutch, Italian, Portuguese or Belgian scenarios (the last could've been horrendous going by the experiences of the Belgian Congo during King Leopold II. As for the Germans...well their imperial mission came far too late to have any real potential influence. You have to remember that the nation of Germany didn't finally come into existence until 1870 after the victory over the French at Sedan. Having said that, there was a model for some German colonisation in Australia (if not imperial conquest) as seen in South Australia. I could be going out on a real limb here, however considering many of those who settled in South Australia were Lutherans escaping religious persecution in Prussia, it may have been they could've had a similar impact on a British-free SA as the Pilgrims did in colonial America. 

 

As for your WW2 question, it pre-supposes that somehow a German occupied/allied Australia would've escaped Anglo-Japanese attention in WW1 (after all the British and Japanese empires were Allies in 1914-18). It may have been possible that just as the Japanese conquered the German Chinese colony of Tsingtao, or we (in the 'true' history timeline too New Guinea), a RN/IJN (with maybe even Russian and French involvement) would've invaded 'Australien'.

 

Putting aside that assumption, if Australia was a German occupied or aligned colony in WW2 it would've had a significant effect on the American war effort in the Pacific, within the context of Germany and Japan strategically coordinating their efforts. It must be said that aside from some minor joint contact and Hitler declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbour, neither empire really worked with the other as much as (for example) the British and the Americans. it may have been that the Japanese would have regarded us like Thailand, i.e. a potential puppet ally. Or maybe like French Indochina...a territory where they would've assumed political and military control due to issues back in Europe for the 'Fatherland.

[Guest BlackSpy]

We nearly French.

 

So close.

[Legionista]

Dutch?

[Guest BlackSpy]

Dutch?

la Perouse

 

The only reason he didn't beat cook was a storm.

[Legionista]

Oh yeah.

 

Now I remember.

 

I was thinking Dirk Hartog, and William Dampier?

 

I can't remember. But I think they were West Coast landings.

 

If we were a Dutch colony it would be cool. Imagine the raves?

[Guest BlackSpy]

Oh yeah.

 

Now I remember.

 

I was thinking Dirk Hartog, and William Dampier?

 

I can't remember. But I think they were West Coast landings.

 

If we were a Dutch colony it would be cool. Imagine the raves?

Ja Ja Mit Van Der Hockkkkkkkk

 

Vee are going to part-e like itsh 1799!