The History Thread

[wendybr]

You could    be right!  

[Guest BlackSpy]

You could    be right!  

You may be right, I may be crazy,

 

But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for.

[CaptainJess]

Let's talk about the history of relationships and dating. There's a topic that could keep us going for a long time

 

I find anthropology fascinating and I'd love to go back and study how the dynamics of men and women in relationships have evolved over time. I think you'd find while there would be a lot of differences between then and now, some fundamentals would be the same.

[marron]

Maybe it's just the Belgians.

 

Look at the British colonies.

 

Straya, Canada, Murica, India, Hong Kong, New Zealand, etc.

 

They've all progressed quite well.

 

Congo is still a basket case from what I know.

 

It wasn't a settler culture.

It was a "get in, get the stuff and get the **** out" type culture. Makes a difference I would think. The colonialists were in the majority after not too long in the other places, or made use of local elites with a long history with all the trappings of civilisation.

But if you are evaluating past events through the moralistic prism of your environment how can you possibly represent objectively 'wie es eigentlich gewesen'

Even von ranke was looking for god. All very well to say you only study primary docs when that's what you've got at your fingertips too.

 

You can't fully understand how it was. How to understand what it was like for Hong Kong natives to go 99 years with the poms... ? That's not to say you can't try.

 

And the further you go back the less comprehensible it becomes, and if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself.

 

I'm trying to understand the ancient sumerians for instance. ..

 

 

"The deflowered girl did not become pregnant. The undeflowered girl became pregnant. What is it?"

 

-Auxiliary forces.

 

O_o

some fundamentals would be the same.

Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband's lap. - 1900BC

[ManfredSchaefer]

Did I just see a reference to Von Ranke in a thread in a football forum?

 

Wow

[Valter43]

Did I just see a reference to Von Ranke in a thread in a football forum?

 

Wow

It's as if I was still at uni doing historiography 101!!!

[Valter43]

Let's talk about the history of relationships and dating. There's a topic that could keep us going for a long time

I find anthropology fascinating and I'd love to go back and study how the dynamics of men and women in relationships have evolved over time. I think you'd find while there would be a lot of differences between then and now, some fundamentals would be the same.

Keen to expand on this when i get back from the coast today (No I'm not celebrating invasion day). It's interesting to look at gender relations in pre class societies and compare them to the situation in our time.

[Valter43]

I find anthropology fascinating and I'd love to go back and study how the dynamics of men and women in relationships have evolved over time. I think you'd find while there would be a lot of differences between then and now, some fundamentals would be the same.

 

I remember reading an anthropology essay on subsistence production of indigenous communities in Arnhem Land, and it compared the differences between gender relations in Arnhem Land today and past.

 

I'll be a little historical materialist here and begin with the defining aspect of each period of humanity being based on the way things are produced. Hence, the term "hunter-gather society" is not just a cool sounding name but is based on how these groups of people created their livelihood. For most of these hunter-gatherer communities there are definite gender roles established; men generally did the hunting, and women generally did the gathering. The essay found that, although these definite gender roles did exist, they were not something with such negative connotations as they are in today's society for hunting was not viewed as inherently more important than gathering, and thus the "women's work" was not viewed as something lesser or inconsequential. With seasonal change, the emphasis on what kind of food would sustain the community changed: in Arnhem Land there were periods where a lack of fauna would lead to total dependence on gathering for survival i.e. the women become the pivotal productive force in the community. This worked vice versa as well (where hunting becomes more important due to seasonal changes).

 

Compare that to the Indigenous communities in Arnhem Land today; the hunting (i.e. men's work) is still practised as a way of obtaining food for a variety of reasons (tradition, cheaper than buying it in the shop) whereas the gathering has largely been supplanted by cheap canned vegetables/fruit and availability of flour/sugar as a result of these communities being assimilated into the market economy.

 

Though the contrast is interesting I think the way in which production was handled in hunter-gatherer communities is a good way of understanding gender relations in pre-class societies. The integral importance of "women's work" meant that, although defined gender roles existed, one was not considered lesser or above the other. Similarly, the burden of child-rearing becomes something that falls onto the shoulders not of the parents (specifically mother) of the child but onto the community as a whole, because both sexes are involved in subsistence production.

 

Interestingly all of these relatively recent 'discoveries' (for want of a better word) were more or less discussed by old mate Friedrich Engels in the late 19th century.

 

Here is a short and sweet article from a few months ago by the Guardian regarding this topic (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/14/early-men-women-equal-scientists)

[Legionista]

[Guest BlackSpy]

They mean it, don't they?

 

That's the scary part.

[Guest mickisnot]

 

I find anthropology fascinating and I'd love to go back and study how the dynamics of men and women in relationships have evolved over time. I think you'd find while there would be a lot of differences between then and now, some fundamentals would be the same.

 

I remember reading an anthropology essay on subsistence production of indigenous communities in Arnhem Land, and it compared the differences between gender relations in Arnhem Land today and past.

 

I'll be a little historical materialist here and begin with the defining aspect of each period of humanity being based on the way things are produced. Hence, the term "hunter-gather society" is not just a cool sounding name but is based on how these groups of people created their livelihood. For most of these hunter-gatherer communities there are definite gender roles established; men generally did the hunting, and women generally did the gathering. The essay found that, although these definite gender roles did exist, they were not something with such negative connotations as they are in today's society for hunting was not viewed as inherently more important than gathering, and thus the "women's work" was not viewed as something lesser or inconsequential. With seasonal change, the emphasis on what kind of food would sustain the community changed: in Arnhem Land there were periods where a lack of fauna would lead to total dependence on gathering for survival i.e. the women become the pivotal productive force in the community. This worked vice versa as well (where hunting becomes more important due to seasonal changes).

 

Compare that to the Indigenous communities in Arnhem Land today; the hunting (i.e. men's work) is still practised as a way of obtaining food for a variety of reasons (tradition, cheaper than buying it in the shop) whereas the gathering has largely been supplanted by cheap canned vegetables/fruit and availability of flour/sugar as a result of these communities being assimilated into the market economy.

 

Though the contrast is interesting I think the way in which production was handled in hunter-gatherer communities is a good way of understanding gender relations in pre-class societies. The integral importance of "women's work" meant that, although defined gender roles existed, one was not considered lesser or above the other. Similarly, the burden of child-rearing becomes something that falls onto the shoulders not of the parents (specifically mother) of the child but onto the community as a whole, because both sexes are involved in subsistence production.

 

Interestingly all of these relatively recent 'discoveries' (for want of a better word) were more or less discussed by old mate Friedrich Engels in the late 19th century.

 

Here is a short and sweet article from a few months ago by the Guardian regarding this topic (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/14/early-men-women-equal-scientists)

 

 

[wendybr]

I liked your article Valter.

 

This lot should stick to the Politics Thread.... oh...wait...      

[Guest BlackSpy]

This lotI wendy should stick to the Politics Thread.... oh...wait...      

[Guest mickisnot]

I liked your article Valter.

 

This lot should stick to the Politics Thread.... oh...wait...

How is my disapproval political?

[Guest BlackSpy]

 

I liked your article Valter.

This lot should stick to the Politics Thread.... oh...wait...

How is my disapproval political?

Because feelings

[CaptainJess]

Well Valter, my original post was half serious, half ****-posting to get the admins to re-open the relationship thread.

 

I didn't expect anybody to take it further but I'm glad you did. I found that very interesting. Don't listen to the others, they're jaded I got my thread re-opened while the politics thread still remains in the abyss

[pseudonym]

Youtube channel - animated series of historical events

 

Extra Credits

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg

[pseudonym]

Penguin Press is releasing a series of short biographies of the British monarchs

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/penguin-has-embarked-on-a-four-year-project-to-chronicle-the-lives-of-all-45-of-our-monarchs-9904553.html

Edited February 4, 2016 by pseudonym

[mack]

LORD PALMERSTON!!!!!!!!!

[Alexander]

Fascinating podcast on the WWII 'Operation Mince Meat'

 

https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/stuff-you-should-know/id278981407?mt=2#episodeGuid=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcasts.howstuffworks.com%2Fhsw%2Fpodcasts%2Fsysk%2F2016-02-02-sysk-operation-mincemeat-final.mp3

[Carns]

LORD PALMERSTON!!!!!!!!!

PITT THE ELDER!

[marron]

Pitt the glint in the milk man's eye.

[Valter43]

Pitt the glint in the milk man's eye.

I never thought an unexpected Blackadder reference would make me laugh so much lmaoooooo

[Alexander]

Fascinating podcast on the WWII 'Operation Mince Meat'

https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/stuff-you-should-know/id278981407?mt=2#episodeGuid=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcasts.howstuffworks.com%2Fhsw%2Fpodcasts%2Fsysk%2F2016-02-02-sysk-operation-mincemeat-final.mp3

Ugh, take 2.

 

It's discusses how the Allies put fake D Day plans in a briefcase of a dead man in order to fool the nazis

 

http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/operation-mincemeat-how-a-corpse-fooled-the-nazis/

[marron]

There was a brilliant movie about that I used to love as a kid.

 

I think it was called "the man who never was".

[ManfredSchaefer]

There was a brilliant movie about that I used to love as a kid.

 

I think it was called "the man who never was".

 

Spot On

[Alexander]

 

There was a brilliant movie about that I used to love as a kid.

I think it was called "the man who never was".

 

Spot On

Its a fascinating story. Amazing that the original idea for the operation came from Ian Fleming. Also known as the creator of James Bond Edited February 4, 2016 by Alexander

[ManfredSchaefer]

7 WW2 Operations You May Have Missed:

 

Operation Hercules: A combined German/Italian plan to invade Malta. Never went ahead partly due to opposition to the possible heavy casualties that were expected to be incurred on the German paratroopers (Fallshirmjaeger), after their use in the invasion of Crete.

 

Operation Menace: A combined Anglo-Free French naval force launched an attack in 1940 on Vichy French forces in the West African port city of Dakar. With the aim of either convincing the Vichy French forces in place to either come over to Free French side, and thus both increase the military and financial strength of De Gaulle's movement, it ended in failure as the Vichy authorities both refused to comply plus actively fought the Anglo-French naval contingent. 

 

Operation Birke/Nordlicht: For most of WW2 the Finns fought against Soviet Russia, during the so-called Winter War of 1939/40, and the Continuation War of 1941-44. During the latter period German forces cooperated with the Finns, including in the extreme north of the country. When the Finns and the Soviets came to terms during the course of spring/summer 1944 the Germans initiated Operations Birke & Nordlicht to firstly protect their interests in the Finnish nickel resources around Petsamo, followed by a withdrawal out of Lapland into the neighbouring occupied territory of Norway.

 

Operation Greif: The most successful German officer in asymmetrical/commando warfare was Otto Skorzeny. Involved in raids to 'liberate' Mussolini after the Italians surrendered to the Allies, and the capture of the Hungarian leader Admiral Horthy in 1944, Skorzeny was tasked with creating confusion behind the lines during the so-called 'Battle of the Bulge'. He led small kommando groups of English speaking troops (with varying degrees of capability in using and knowing American slang and culture) in behind the lines missions, where they carried our nuisance tasks like changing road signs, disrupting communication and generally instilling paranoia within the Allied troops. Some of the kommandos were caught and executed, whilst Skorzeny survived both this battale and the end of the war.

 

Operation Jericho: Alongside the famous Dambusters raid this was the most daring precision bombing mission flown by the Allies over Europe. The mission was flown in February 1944 by three squadrons of Mosquitios, including the RAAF's 464 Sqd, and their mission was to assist in the escape of numerous French resistance fighters captured and held by the Germans in Amien prison. Flying at the lowest level possible these aircraft destroyed part of the walls and internal structures of the prison, with over 200 prisoners escaping. However many French captives were killed in the bombing raid and many who had escaped were recaptured by the Germans shortly after teh raid.

 

Operations Sabine/Regatta/Regulta: For most of May 1941 Anglo-Indian forces were involved in combat with and the overthrowing of the pro-Axis Iraqi regime of Rashid Ali. After Ali came to power through a coup d'etat he launched his forces against the British, focusing on the RAF air base at Habbinya. Assisted by a token German/Italian air contingent Ali's forces failed to take the base. Thereafter a sizable contingent of British and Indian land forces invaded Iraq, landing troops amphibiously and via Palestine. After several skirmishes and some larger battles the Imperial forces defeated Ali's regime, Baghdad was captured and a pro-British regent was reinstalled as Iraq's leader.

 

Operation Manna/Chowhound: With the Dutch on the brink of starvation (due to German demands on their food resources and a hideously harsh winter) in autumn 1945, the Allied air forces began with German cooperation a major humanitarian air lift of food and other supplies during April and May. Remarkably almost all the Allied planes that flew these missions were unmolested by German anti-aircraft forces, with the leading Nazi in Holland (Dr Arthur Seyss-Inquart) negotiating with the Allies safe passage for the planes. Over 5500 flights were flown during these operations.

[Smoggy]

My Grandfather, POW in a Polish stalag 1940 -1945 and involved in the 1945 'death march' went on BBC radio and was interviewed the year before he died as a survivor. Will have to transcribe some snippets one day from the recording.

[Alexander]

7 WW2 Operations You May Have Missed:

 

Operation Hercules: A combined German/Italian plan to invade Malta. Never went ahead partly due to opposition to the possible heavy casualties that were expected to be incurred on the German paratroopers (Fallshirmjaeger), after their use in the invasion of Crete.

 

Operation Menace: A combined Anglo-Free French naval force launched an attack in 1940 on Vichy French forces in the West African port city of Dakar. With the aim of either convincing the Vichy French forces in place to either come over to Free French side, and thus both increase the military and financial strength of De Gaulle's movement, it ended in failure as the Vichy authorities both refused to comply plus actively fought the Anglo-French naval contingent. 

 

Operation Birke/Nordlicht: For most of WW2 the Finns fought against Soviet Russia, during the so-called Winter War of 1939/40, and the Continuation War of 1941-44. During the latter period German forces cooperated with the Finns, including in the extreme north of the country. When the Finns and the Soviets came to terms during the course of spring/summer 1944 the Germans initiated Operations Birke & Nordlicht to firstly protect their interests in the Finnish nickel resources around Petsamo, followed by a withdrawal out of Lapland into the neighbouring occupied territory of Norway.

 

Operation Greif: The most successful German officer in asymmetrical/commando warfare was Otto Skorzeny. Involved in raids to 'liberate' Mussolini after the Italians surrendered to the Allies, and the capture of the Hungarian leader Admiral Horthy in 1944, Skorzeny was tasked with creating confusion behind the lines during the so-called 'Battle of the Bulge'. He led small kommando groups of English speaking troops (with varying degrees of capability in using and knowing American slang and culture) in behind the lines missions, where they carried our nuisance tasks like changing road signs, disrupting communication and generally instilling paranoia within the Allied troops. Some of the kommandos were caught and executed, whilst Skorzeny survived both this battale and the end of the war.

 

Operation Jericho: Alongside the famous Dambusters raid this was the most daring precision bombing mission flown by the Allies over Europe. The mission was flown in February 1944 by three squadrons of Mosquitios, including the RAAF's 464 Sqd, and their mission was to assist in the escape of numerous French resistance fighters captured and held by the Germans in Amien prison. Flying at the lowest level possible these aircraft destroyed part of the walls and internal structures of the prison, with over 200 prisoners escaping. However many French captives were killed in the bombing raid and many who had escaped were recaptured by the Germans shortly after teh raid.

 

Operations Sabine/Regatta/Regulta: For most of May 1941 Anglo-Indian forces were involved in combat with and the overthrowing of the pro-Axis Iraqi regime of Rashid Ali. After Ali came to power through a coup d'etat he launched his forces against the British, focusing on the RAF air base at Habbinya. Assisted by a token German/Italian air contingent Ali's forces failed to take the base. Thereafter a sizable contingent of British and Indian land forces invaded Iraq, landing troops amphibiously and via Palestine. After several skirmishes and some larger battles the Imperial forces defeated Ali's regime, Baghdad was captured and a pro-British regent was reinstalled as Iraq's leader.

 

Operation Manna/Chowhound: With the Dutch on the brink of starvation (due to German demands on their food resources and a hideously harsh winter) in autumn 1945, the Allied air forces began with German cooperation a major humanitarian air lift of food and other supplies during April and May. Remarkably almost all the Allied planes that flew these missions were unmolested by German anti-aircraft forces, with the leading Nazi in Holland (Dr Arthur Seyss-Inquart) negotiating with the Allies safe passage for the planes. Over 5500 flights were flown during these operations.

A couple of others that you might not of heard of & some of my favourites:

- Operation Market Garden

- Mannhatten Project (I know most have heard of it, but it's a great tale)

- The many escapes of Colditz Prison. A prison where prominent POW escapees were sent after being recaptured

- The Warsaw Ghetto Resistance & the shameful decision made by Stalin to not help them

- Van Stauffenburgs botched attempt to execute Hitler (there were 41 other botched attempts)

- The Australian officers looting of Darwin homes post civilian evacuation

- The Rats of Tobruk

- The Battle of Britian

- The Battle of Kursk

- Stalingrad

 

That'll do for now