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wendybr

Australian Current Affairs Thread (not a Politics Thread) lol

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2 hours ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

I saw that clown and after watching for a few minutes turned off.

He's the kind of lazy populist 'academic' that gets all the angry white teenage middle class boys in a lather because he tells them they're victims, and then makes millions from his cult-like followers through pandering to their interests.

In essence he's the Twisted Sister of the RWFW 'intelligentsia'.

^ this

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1 minute ago, wendybr said:

He's had always had a practice Cynth...and often refers to his clients in his lectures.

From Wiki...

"For most of his career, Peterson had an active clinical practice, seeing about 20 people a week. "

He might have let that slide now, I think...since he travels so much.

 

Yes Wendy, however JP is a career academic who chose to see clients not a clinician. His expertise is in social and personality psychology.

 However I very highly doubt he saw 20 clients per week as well as being a full time professor at Toronto. That is a full-time clinical load. Meanwhile he prolifically wrote books, lectured and supervised students. I think Wiki is not so good a source. He gave up his side practice after accusations of misconduct by the way. 

His career is academia was always his primary thing. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, wendybr said:

Here's almost 3.5 hours of interesting conversation...:spiteful:

 

 
 

I’d rather Jam my private parts in a car door than listen to that guy for 3.5 minutes 

Edited by StringerBellend

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26 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is an academic who teaches in psychology, he is not a clinician  or a psychologist in the traditional sense. 

 Just sayin.....

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is...

That's about as far as I'd go.

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1 minute ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

Just to clarify, Jordan Petersen is...

That's about as far as I'd go.

You know....if you watch his old stuff before he became....well the societal commentator that he is now..., his old university lectures, he was a wonderful, engaging lecturer. The content was fascinating in the areas he had expertise. I would have loved to have been a student of his. 

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39 minutes ago, marron said:

Here's the thing Wendy.

There's truth in what he says about that (even though the obsession with marriage is just a tad weird).

There are all sorts of effects on our society of having changed the "traditional" (of course, it changes all the time, but traditional if you are short-sighted) family model, and giving women equal rights. Some of them are problematic.

What we can't do though is simple flick a switch and change things to be how they were, especially when that means taking away rights of people to do things that we take for granted.

We have to work on what issues we face now, in new ways, because we have new situations that didn't exist before. Rather than refusing to accept that things are different, and encouraging people to view things that were done in the past as some sort of idyll with no problems.

 

I don't disagree with that Marron.

But maybe what I do admire about Peterson is that he does think things through (despite what has been said here and in Manny's cheap shot article) and he doesn't really have a one size fits all solution.

He does look to how things were done in the past for some solutions...but  then he offers other suggestions that really haven't been around in recent times.

Someone above said he appeals to young men which encourages them to feel they are victims, but that's the absolute OPPOSITE of what he tells them.

He tells them  - to take responsibility for themselves, to harden up and sort out their own problems

                        - to look after themselves (care for yourself as if you are someone you are responsible for caring for)

                        - to NOT play the victim, whine, and blame others eg You can't blame your parents for anything from about 18 years old - get yourself sorted etc

I do not accept that it's as simple as that for many young people to start on a better road to sorting out their problems, but it's on the right track.

Re marriage....yeah - his ideas may be a bit narrow. But well .....despite the successes of many people raised in non- traditional families, and conversely, the troubles of others who are raised within traditional families... he's probably right about the general benefit of being raised within a stable family...isn't he?

I think he is much much more realistic about the flaws of modern society, and the ways to address them  than to be merely " encouraging people to view things that were done in the past as some sort of idyll with no problems."

 

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4 minutes ago, Cynth said:

You know....if you watch his old stuff before he became....well the societal commentator that he is now..., his old university lectures, he was a wonderful, engaging lecturer. The content was fascinating in the areas he had expertise. I would have loved to have been a student of his. 

He may well have been just that Cynth. Problem is he has become a willing participant in his own myth-making, with the complicity of those who have a narrative that they want to push (whether it be Incels, climate-change deniers, conservative god-botherers or dullards who think that because he's a uni academic that makes him a great cover for their intellectual inadequacy.

And just so no one can accuse me of being a Maoist Trotskyite Leninist Gender Fluid Femmo Provocateur, I find a similar level of silliness with those who worship Chomsky, Singer and other icons of the left academia. The difference between them and Petersen though is that they never really used the accumulation of capital (i.e. personal greed) to make them wealthy off YouTube videos, personal appearances and Patreon accounts.

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6 minutes ago, Cynth said:

You know....if you watch his old stuff before he became....well the societal commentator that he is now..., his old university lectures, he was a wonderful, engaging lecturer. The content was fascinating in the areas he had expertise. I would have loved to have been a student of his. 

Yes - absolutely!

All the uni lectures are still good imo - even tho I don't always agree with his views or solutions to issues.

But that's always acknowledged...that both at Harvard and in Toronto, he has always been hugely popular,  engaging and successful as a lecturer/professor.

Which is why I do not believe that he is doing what he is doing out of opportunism - the opportunity for a nobody to have acknowledgement and adulation - which he surely has found) or to get rich quick.

He would need neither acknowledgement nor money, as far as I can see.

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Posted (edited)

He might tell them that stuff in his self help books Wendy but he also tells them via his other channels that itss the SJWs running a cultural marxist plot that are to blame for their problems.

The combination of those two things is very problematic. Like, a lot. Clean yourself up, and ready yourself for battle with [insert] who deserve it.

I've no doubt he's got nuance to his arguments and proposals. A stab;e environment is good yes. But the stable environment of yesterday  - married couple, mum at home - is not the reality of today, or the solution to today either, necessarily.

 

 

Edited by marron

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19 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

I’d rather Jam my private parts in a car door than listen to that guy for 3.5 minutes 

Your loss Stringer.

I assume you mean JP...rather than JR.

 

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And I'm sorry Wendy and Goat too, because I can't do youtube, it just doesn't work for me absorbption wise or just life wise, with stuff like this.

 

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9 minutes ago, marron said:

He might tell them that stuff in his self help books Wendy but he also tells them via his other channels that itss the SJWs running a cultural marxist plot that are to blame for their problems.

The combination of those two things is very problematic. Like, a lot. Clean yourself up, and ready yourself for battle with [insert] who deserve it.

I've no doubt he's got nuance to his arguments and proposals. A stab;e environment is good yes. But the stable environment of yesterday  - married couple, mum at home - is not the reality of today, or the solution to today either, necessarily.

 

 

This I agree with. I think there is contradictions in his message now.

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15 minutes ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

He may well have been just that Cynth. Problem is he has become a willing participant in his own myth-making, with the complicity of those who have a narrative that they want to push (whether it be Incels, climate-change deniers, conservative god-botherers or dullards who think that because he's a uni academic that makes him a great cover for their intellectual inadequacy.

And just so no one can accuse me of being a Maoist Trotskyite Leninist Gender Fluid Femmo Provocateur, I find a similar level of silliness with those who worship Chomsky, Singer and other icons of the left academia. The difference between them and Petersen though is that they never really used the accumulation of capital (i.e. personal greed) to make them wealthy off YouTube videos, personal appearances and Patreon accounts.

Hey I like Noam Chomsky! :nono:

:D

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4 minutes ago, marron said:

I've no doubt he's got nuance to his arguments and proposals. A stab;e environment is good yes. But the stable environment of yesterday  - married couple, mum at home - is not the reality of today, or the solution to today either, necessarily.

 

Hmmmm….I'm not sure I've heard him talking about women saying at home - but he may well have said so?

He certainly does talk about young women abandoning high status careers to pursue motherhood. Or at least he refers to them as re-prioritising away from climbing the corporate ladder, in exchange for finding a more meaningful life in parenthood.

I doubt many people would dispute that. No matter how much a person might value their career, it is not more valued that having a  family.

So he's pretty right about that, I think.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, marron said:

He might tell them that stuff in his self help books Wendy but he also tells them via his other channels that itss the SJWs running a cultural marxist plot that are to blame for their problems.

The combination of those two things is very problematic. Like, a lot. Clean yourself up, and ready yourself for battle with [insert] who deserve it.

I've no doubt he's got nuance to his arguments and proposals. A stab;e environment is good yes. But the stable environment of yesterday  - married couple, mum at home - is not the reality of today, or the solution to today either, necessarily.

 

 

You can throw in his position on global climate change (i.e. “First of all, it’s very difficult to separate the science from the politics, and, second, even if the more radical claims are true we have no idea what to do about it.,” https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/08/jordan-peterson-global-warming-hype/)

Well yes, a psych academic is the first person who would not know what to do about it. However those scientists who have identified that carbon emissions need to be cut so as to help address the problem do have an idea, and they're the ones I'd trust instead of a guy who think boys should harden up. 

Edited by ManfredSchaefer

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7 minutes ago, marron said:

And I'm sorry Wendy and Goat too, because I can't do youtube, it just doesn't work for me absorbption wise or just life wise, with stuff like this.

 

I certainly get the "life wise" restrictions, Marron.

You have a demanding job and young kids.

Re absorption wise - you are not an auditory learner?  :D

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Posted (edited)

Re: the women at home thing, pretty sure I've read stuff from him on the way that more women being in the workforce after women's lib is an issue on a number of levels. maybe i got it wrong. but in any case - that is the "traditional" thing, isn't it.

Learning wise - i'm pretty balanced, abut I'm often on here when i'm doing other stuff. been marking practice essays in between. heh.

 

 

Edited by marron

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Just now, Cynth said:

You are in fine form Manny! 

Cranks and dickheads who are in the self-help game, who strut and preen as if they have the answer to the world's problems through their programs that are available in hardback, paperback, DVD, CD and audio-book piss me off no end. They attract the kind of people who are sadly gullible and insecure, and with a bit of sweet and sour pop psych next thing you know they are spouting their shaman's words as if its the fooking gospel.

Seen it before with the likes of Ron Blanchard, Deepak Chopra, Tony Robbins...even Dale Carnegie. Then there's the anti-vaxxers, the keto diet loons, the rabid PETA folk.

There might...just might...be a nub or kernel of a good idea at the heart of some of these folk & their self-help cottage industry. And a few of these folk are in some respects relatively harmless. The problem with Petersen is that he is enabling the kind of RWFW ideas, behaviours, attitudes and (ironically) not taking any responsibility for it.

Whether it's JP, Hitler, Jim Jones, Pete Evans or that guy who led the Branch Davidians...for all their BS about self-reliance, think for yourself, be an individual an their utopian visions of how to have a better life, the only ones who seem to really profit out of it are them.

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7 minutes ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

You can throw in his position on global climate change (i.e. “First of all, it’s very difficult to separate the science from the politics, and, second, even if the more radical claims are true we have no idea what to do about it.,” https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/08/jordan-peterson-global-warming-hype/)

Well yes, a psych academic is the first person who would not know what to do about it. However those scientists who have identified that carbon emissions need to be cut so as to help address the problem do have an idea, and they're the ones I'd trust instead of a guy who think boys should harden up. 

Totally agree with you on this - and I've said as much elsewhere.

He isn't at all inspiring, or in any way helpful on climate change.

Most recently, I heard him say he didn't think humanity has what it takes to unify on the issue of CC.

And pessimistic as it is, I don't see much evidence that he's wrong on that, tbh. Just look at our leaders.

But yeah - he's not exactly dismissive - but too negative and offers nothing but pessimism on CC from what I've heard. 

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5 minutes ago, marron said:

Re: the women at home thing, pretty sure I've read stuff from him on the way that more women being in the workforce after women's lib is an issue on a number of levels. maybe i got it wrong. but in any case - that is the "traditional" thing, isn't it.

Yeah - maybe.

He's obsessed with doing the right thing by children - and that's fair enough too.

And he sees marriage (and monogamous marriages) as best for kids - as is discussed in the long interview above. But don't recall that the mum's role is to be home rather than have a job/career.

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16 minutes ago, marron said:

Learning wise - i'm pretty balanced, abut I'm often on here when i'm doing other stuff. been marking practice essays in between. heh.

I'm often multitasking on the forums too - and take breaks from marking to read and post.

You can't (well I can't) mark kids' work and listen to You Tube clips.

 

BUT you can take time out from work to browse on the forums AND listen to You tube clips when you take a break!  ;)

:D:D

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7 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Totally agree with you on this - and I've said as much elsewhere.

He isn't at all inspiring, or in any way helpful on climate change.

Most recently, I heard him say he didn't think humanity has what it takes to unify on the issue of CC.

And pessimistic as it is, I don't see much evidence that he's wrong on that, tbh. Just look at our leaders.

But yeah - he's not exactly dismissive - but too negative and offers nothing but pessimism on CC from what I've heard. 

The problem is Wendy, and this goes to the very heart of it, he has set himself up (either willingly or grudgingly) as an expert on anything and everything, with the resultant impact on his broad base of frightened, angry, right wing devotees (who would, I believe but happy to be proven wrong, be mostly young white men). 

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9 minutes ago, ManfredSchaefer said:

The problem is Wendy, and this goes to the very heart of it, he has set himself up (either willingly or grudgingly) as an expert on anything and everything, with the resultant impact on his broad base of frightened, angry, right wing devotees (who would, I believe but happy to be proven wrong, be mostly young white men). 

Re setting himself up as an expert...Don't think it's as simple as that Manny.

On the one hand.... there have been plenty of journalists who have wanted to get at him/goad him, and portray him as far Right. And they will ask about all sorts of issues to portray him one way or another. Not his fault...although he might be better off flicking those questions off and acknowledging that they aren't questions he is qualified to answer.

And then he is very confident in his own opinions and has a pretty extensive general knowledge (although he does say off the cuff things he later realises were not given consideration, and that he didn't respond to well) So he might say something on the spur of the moment, which isn't thought through. And he CERTAINLY can react emotionally on occasions.

Then there are also plenty out there whose toes he has trodden on, and who are out to portray him in an unfavorable light, and who go at him - as did Terri Butler and that girl in the audience on Q&A.

Re young white men as his audience... could well be...but it could also be that they are the most likely demographic to be spending a lot of time on the internet...or on You Tube?? Many seem to relate to him as a father figure...and I guess that would make sense that he might appeal to that demographic.

Don't know that having a primarily young male audience should be seen as anything sinister.....or a young "white" (ugh) male audience for that matter.

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Not sinister, but instructive. 

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"Truth is made rather than found." - Richard Rorty.

Guys like JP are truth makers, in a different age and space they'd be meaningless. Currently we are listening to them.

We are living in a postmodern world, the grand narratives of the Enlightenment area do not hold any longer. In the past there was conflict between belief systems, now we have conflict within belief systems. Everything that once seemed certain is now uncertain, the believes and trust in authorities like churches, politicians, democratic institutions, the powerful mature white male, police, media, the law, banks etc has been shattered.

Walter Truett Anderson (1995) wrote that "psychologists such as Kenneth Gergen focus on postmodern experience - on how it "feels" to live amid such, often contradictory barrage of cultural stimuli; what it does to us and what kind of people we become." When the young Caucasian man in QandA looks for reassurance from JP, you get a sense that it ain't fun for many, and quite confusing.

Trump, Brexit, the rise of nationalism, Muslim bashing, conservatives in politics and media  backing a convicted churchy pedophile - they are expressions of a counter revolution, an attempt to stop the Tsunami, to go back to the good old days, or at least to hold on to what there still is. As if we can turn back the clock! JP is caught up in that movement, apparently quite unable to reflect on it. To me he seems like someone who doesn't understand where the message is coming from that he is amplifying. But what would I know. he is the professor, and I am not.

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55 minutes ago, FCB said:

"Truth is made rather than found." - Richard Rorty.

Guys like JP are truth makers, in a different age and space they'd be meaningless. Currently we are listening to them.

We are living in a postmodern world, the grand narratives of the Enlightenment area do not hold any longer. In the past there was conflict between belief systems, now we have conflict within belief systems. Everything that once seemed certain is now uncertain, the believes and trust in authorities like churches, politicians, democratic institutions, the powerful mature white male, police, media, the law, banks etc has been shattered.

Walter Truett Anderson (1995) wrote that "psychologists such as Kenneth Gergen focus on postmodern experience - on how it "feels" to live amid such, often contradictory barrage of cultural stimuli; what it does to us and what kind of people we become." When the young Caucasian man in QandA looks for reassurance from JP, you get a sense that it ain't fun for many, and quite confusing.

Trump, Brexit, the rise of nationalism, Muslim bashing, conservatives in politics and media  backing a convicted churchy pedophile - they are expressions of a counter revolution, an attempt to stop the Tsunami, to go back to the good old days, or at least to hold on to what there still is. As if we can turn back the clock! JP is caught up in that movement, apparently quite unable to reflect on it. To me he seems like someone who doesn't understand where the message is coming from that he is amplifying. But what would I know. he is the professor, and I am not.

That's an interesting post, my friend.

There sort of is a counter revolution going on...well at least, a definite push back.

That's often been the way things go - although I agree we are in dramatically unchartered territory now.

So I agree with much of what you say there...but I really don't understand how JP can be seen as "unable to reflect on" what's happening. If anything, my reading of him is that he is thinking/reflecting on modern issues all the time. Deeply reflecting on them.

To suggest he doesn't understand what's going on around him is odd. To suggest that he is somehow an unknowing pawn is quite wrong imo. He had some very undesirable elements latch onto him for a while - but that was transitory.

How much of his stuff  have you listened to, to base your observations on? 

More than Manny's two minutes on Q&A...plus a few Guardian articles telling readers why he's dangerous?  :D

 

 

 

PS This is unfamiliar territory for me - arguing with you two...three including Marron!  :unsure: :unsure:

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56 minutes ago, marron said:

Not sinister, but instructive. 

Instructive...of what?

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A lot of interesting discussion going on here. Pity I understand less than 10% of it.

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22 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Instructive...of what?

If you want to understand the impact of a message, look to the receiver. If the ones lapping it up are from a certain demographic, then it tells you something. Basically, that this isn't universal.  Why is it that it hits a certain demographic? What is it about that group thst makes it receptive? Access to the message is one part, but not the only part. And what is it about the message? It must appeal.

And the message is - Don't lose control..... take it back..... 

If that's of your own life,,yeah, good.

If that's of others people's lives, you know what, **** you.  

 

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