Second Derby Defeat For Wanderers

[GunnerWanderer]

On 24/11/2024 at 12:17 AM, Sithslayer1991 said:

So my question becomes should we just stick Mata there in CDM. Just to give some experience. I mean it wasn't entirely terrible today. The 2nd half return was led by Mata dictating the play for us in midfield.

I called for this weeks ago Brillante and preistman are almost unplayable for me at the moment  sculiana look excellent in the first half of the derby I’d like to see Mata next to him and help him develop he actually looks as good as Hoff was in those early days but he doesn’t have as good as team around him. 

[Unlimited]

Not sure why Jeong is getting negative press on this thread

No one wants to look at the comedy of errors Bonetig for the fourth goal? Casually jogging along with the ESFC player until he scored? Yeah great defending

How about Bonetig for the second goal? Lost the man he was marking and allowed a free header

When Jeong left a trailing leg and got shellacked for "**** defending" to concede the penalty in the 4-1 win over the Jets, meanwhile Pantazopoulos escapes flak-free on this thread for the most obvious penalty of all-time for kicking Grant so hard he's still bruised today?

What are we going to blame Jeong for - the first goal? You mean where he was playing RB and had to try and block a cross because goodness knows where Cleur was?

[GunnerWanderer]

@Unlimited we all have our scapegoats mine is Brillante haha 

Jeong FWIW hasn’t been our worse player he’s actually looked a bit better later 

[WSWJACK]

9 hours ago, Unlimited said:

Not sure why Jeong is getting negative press on this thread

No one wants to look at the comedy of errors Bonetig for the fourth goal? Casually jogging along with the ESFC player until he scored? Yeah great defending

How about Bonetig for the second goal? Lost the man he was marking and allowed a free header

When Jeong left a trailing leg and got shellacked for "**** defending" to concede the penalty in the 4-1 win over the Jets, meanwhile Pantazopoulos escapes flak-free on this thread for the most obvious penalty of all-time for kicking Grant so hard he's still bruised today?

What are we going to blame Jeong for - the first goal? You mean where he was playing RB and had to try and block a cross because goodness knows where Cleur was?

He is way better than his first game, has gotten more physical recently, his strength his out jumping his opponent to head the ball first when long balls are pumped forward, he’s good at that.

[StringerBellend]

56 minutes ago, WSWJACK said:

He is way better than his first game, has gotten more physical recently, his strength his out jumping his opponent to head the ball first when long balls are pumped forward, he’s good at that.

I'm going to watch for that a I think in my gaze of negative thinking all I see is a 6 5 guy get out jumped at corners..but maybe he's just my scapegoat 

9 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

@Unlimited we all have our scapegoats mine is Brillante haha 

Jeong FWIW hasn’t been our worse player he’s actually looked a bit better later 

Mine new one is Stajic I'm blaming him for everything 

[StringerBellend]

10 hours ago, Unlimited said:

Not sure why Jeong is getting negative press on this thread

No one wants to look at the comedy of errors Bonetig for the fourth goal? Casually jogging along with the ESFC player until he scored? Yeah great defending

How about Bonetig for the second goal? Lost the man he was marking and allowed a free header

When Jeong left a trailing leg and got shellacked for "**** defending" to concede the penalty in the 4-1 win over the Jets, meanwhile Pantazopoulos escapes flak-free on this thread for the most obvious penalty of all-time for kicking Grant so hard he's still bruised today?

What are we going to blame Jeong for - the first goal? You mean where he was playing RB and had to try and block a cross because goodness knows where Cleur was?

I blame him for the first one, his attempt at a tackle was comical 

But yes where was cleur

[GunnerWanderer]

55 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

10 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

 

Mine new one is Stajic I'm blaming him for everything 

It might be the wisest choice! 

[WSWJACK]

14 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

@Unlimited we all have our scapegoats mine is Brillante haha 

Jeong FWIW hasn’t been our worse player he’s actually looked a bit better later 

Everyone has to drop a notch to get on par with Clisby atm, from a stable performer of A league standard to the level he is playing at now, I don’t understand how quickly his game has regressed, would suggest his motivation has dropped through the floor, move to another club would be best for WSW and for Jack.

[Sithslayer1991]

1 hour ago, WSWJACK said:

Everyone has to drop a notch to get on par with Clisby atm, from a stable performer of A league standard to the level he is playing at now, I don’t understand how quickly his game has regressed, would suggest his motivation has dropped through the floor, move to another club would be best for WSW and for Jack.

Getting heavily exposed.

In the Rudan era last season he actually started with career best form because Rudan wanted him to bomb forward. Clisby has always had a decent engine to go up forward and put in a decent cross or support the attack. The issue was everyone figured that out last season and kept attacking our left side on transition and so he had Clisby play more defensive, which funnily enough impacted Milanovic's ability to influence the game because he needed to protect the Left side. Under a stable central defence and Hendrix playing in midfield Clisby mistakes were limited in their impact on the team.

Clisby is 32 now nearly 33 so naturally he is starting to slow down, and without his pace he is getting more exposed than he was before. He was always a 6/10 player with limitations and now its just a case of his use by date has come, but we haven't gotten an LB to replace him. Wilmering was a fail, they trialed Connor O'Toole and instead signed Holliday. Bonetig game is even influenced by Clisby because its almost like he doesn't have confidence in Clisby so you find him sometimes out of position trying to protect the space in behind on the left. Structurally in defense under Staj there is just so much more space and hesitation that yes it makes sense that Clisby is getting killed at LB whenever he plays. Panta is just more physical but he doesn't support Kraev the best in attack but its a band aid solution to a lack of depth at LB. Its actually telling that despite LB being a problem Staj doesn't have faith in Holliday and prefers to play Panta there instead and Panta is younger. So is Holliday just another Wilmering or Aquilina?

[WSWJACK]

Maybe we should have tried harder to keep Traore here

[Edinburgh]

15 minutes ago, WSWJACK said:

Maybe we should have tried harder to keep Traore here

He was copping almost as much flak from "fans" in his last season with us as Clisby is now.  It seemed that most were glad to see him go. 

[Davo]

28 minutes ago, Edinburgh said:

He was copping almost as much flak from "fans" in his last season with us as Clisby is now.  It seemed that most were glad to see him go. 

I believe the route of the fullback hate train was Wilmering > Traore > Russell > Clisby

[StringerBellend]

3 hours ago, Edinburgh said:

He was copping almost as much flak from "fans" in his last season with us as Clisby is now.  It seemed that most were glad to see him go. 

He was **** just because Clisby is more **** doesn't mean he wasn't **** 

 

[StringerBellend]

3 hours ago, Davo said:

I believe the route of the fullback hate train was Wilmering > Traore > Russell > Clisby

All crap 

[StringerBellend]

willmerring we destroyed him went from promising young fullback to be scared of a football.

Traore another in the long line of one season at wanderers before retirement 

Russell never a footballer, good athlete never a footballer

Clisby we let him go as he wasn't good enough, and then brought him back for reasons unknown

Good WSW fullbacks 

Polenz (the best we have had)

Daputso (better then we realised at the time)

Jamison (good Footy player but a bit of a nob) 

Passable but not very good 

Neville 

 

Varying levels of **** 

Llorente - practicing social distancing before COVID 

Adeleke - PS2 controller that was stuck 

Russell - not a footballer, in the AFLW they get athletes from other sports who can run, jump and kick and make them into AFL players. Football doesn't work that way pre injury he ran up and down a lot but couldn't take cross or pass made up for his lack of awareness in defence with running 

Post injury he just ran up and down a bit 

Clisby 

[StringerBellend]

Oh let me add Shannon Cole to the good fullback list

And Tanaka

 golec can go on  the ok list

Edited November 26, 2024 by StringerBellend

[Carns]

6 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

Traore another in the long line of one season at wanderers before retirement 

Traore went back to Victory after WSW and is still playing.

[WSWJACK]

20 minutes ago, Carns said:

Traore went back to Victory after WSW and is still playing.

Beat me to it

[Davo]

7 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

All crap 

I suspected I’d summon the engineer of the hate train with that comment.

[Davo]

45 minutes ago, Carns said:

Traore went back to Victory after WSW and is still playing.

Got a goal and four assists in the league last season.

[StringerBellend]

40 minutes ago, Davo said:

I suspected I’d summon the engineer of the hate train with that comment.

Its not about hate. But do you think they played well for us?

Willmerring looked so good when he came in too, by the end the poor kid looked terrified against Apia. I really don't know what we did to him 

 

[Davo]

45 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

Its not about hate. But do you think they played well for us?

Willmerring looked so good when he came in too, by the end the poor kid looked terrified against Apia. I really don't know what we did to him 

 

Traore was a strong A-League player, went and played as a regular starter in Europe, came back to Australia, wasn't good for us, then moved back to Victory and immediately went back to being a strong A-League player with a goal and four assists from fullback last season in a team that made the grand final.

Russell was good for us, had a horrible injury which set him back, and as soon as he started playing poorly the fans got on his back and he was shipped out. Now a regular starter in a WU side that's above us in the table having conceded half the number of goals we have. Also you say it's not about hate but did he cut you off in traffic or kick your dog, because your vendetta against him last season certainly felt personal.

It's no wonder Wilmering looked terrified. He was 20 years old in that game, only had a dozen appearances for the first team, and as a boyhood fan of the club he would had seen the fullback hate train come for all the fullbacks you listed above.

A couple of years ago I looked up how players went when they transferred from another A-League club to us, or from us to another A-League club, covering all transfers since Popa left. For 74% of players we signed from other A-League clubs, their old club finished above us in the subsequent season. 67% of players who left us for another A-League club went on to finish above us in the subsequent season. Four players left us and won a trophy in the following season with another club. You can't just say "all crap" when they're able to do it at other clubs, both before and after playing for us.

It's the club. It's too much of a trend to ignore. Players who play well for other sides and that we're excited to sign, play poorly for us and are run out of the club in a hail of rotten tomatoes, then go to another club and revert back to being good players. It's the top management, some of the coaching hires, the culture at the club.

[Sithslayer1991]

I think we would take Traore back in hindsight if Clisby was the replacement. But in saying that Kasey Bos has well and truly won the spot of LB this season over Traore, so Traore is also hit the use by date.

And that's our issue we don't have an LB replacement ready.

1 hour ago, StringerBellend said:

Its not about hate. But do you think they played well for us?

Willmerring looked so good when he came in too, by the end the poor kid looked terrified against Apia. I really don't know what we did to him 

 

Don't necessarily agree on Wilmering. He had a good cross yes but he always getting exposed defensively. Even the amount game time provided didn't improve this. So Wilmering has become the 2nd comming of Clisby. We just haven't produced a good LB through the academy yet.

[Carns]

1 hour ago, Davo said:

It's the top management, some of the coaching hires, the culture at the club.

This.

We've been a shambles for the better part of a decade. It's so much bigger than individual coaches and players. The club is toxic.

[StringerBellend]

42 minutes ago, Sithslayer1991 said:

I think we would take Traore back in hindsight if Clisby was the replacement. But in saying that Kasey Bos has well and truly won the spot of LB this season over Traore, so Traore is also hit the use by date.

And that's our issue we don't have an LB replacement ready.

Don't necessarily agree on Wilmering. He had a good cross yes but he always getting exposed defensively. Even the amount game time provided didn't improve this. So Wilmering has become the 2nd comming of Clisby. We just haven't produced a good LB through the academy yet.

Mostly agree on willmering, came in looked as he had a decent cross (something our Clisby doesn't have). He was suspect defensively which people put down to he's a kid, but he didn't seem to improve. My lasting memory of him was how terrified he looked against Apia, he was so scared of making a mistake or losing the ball, that every time he got it, he'd pass it backwards or sideways as quickly as he could to get rid of it. 

On the academy yep. Hard to believe we let Clisby go years ago and in that time couldn't find a kid in the academy with a left foot, and we still haven't.

I was wrong on Taore, I'd forgot he had an ok season on his return to Victory, but he has hit use by date now. I really thought he'd be ace for us, but all he seemed to do was give a way stupid free kicks in dangerous positions and lash his shots into the back of the north stand.

[StringerBellend]

1 hour ago, Davo said:

Traore was a strong A-League player, went and played as a regular starter in Europe, came back to Australia, wasn't good for us, then moved back to Victory and immediately went back to being a strong A-League player with a goal and four assists from fullback last season in a team that made the grand final.

Russell was good for us, had a horrible injury which set him back, and as soon as he started playing poorly the fans got on his back and he was shipped out. Now a regular starter in a WU side that's above us in the table having conceded half the number of goals we have. Also you say it's not about hate but did he cut you off in traffic or kick your dog, because your vendetta against him last season certainly felt personal.

It's no wonder Wilmering looked terrified. He was 20 years old in that game, only had a dozen appearances for the first team, and as a boyhood fan of the club he would had seen the fullback hate train come for all the fullbacks you listed above.

A couple of years ago I looked up how players went when they transferred from another A-League club to us, or from us to another A-League club, covering all transfers since Popa left. For 74% of players we signed from other A-League clubs, their old club finished above us in the subsequent season. 67% of players who left us for another A-League club went on to finish above us in the subsequent season. Four players left us and won a trophy in the following season with another club. You can't just say "all crap" when they're able to do it at other clubs, both before and after playing for us.

It's the club. It's too much of a trend to ignore. Players who play well for other sides and that we're excited to sign, play poorly for us and are run out of the club in a hail of rotten tomatoes, then go to another club and revert back to being good players. It's the top management, some of the coaching hires, the culture at the club.

Those stats about players leaving and doing better after leaving us is pretty damning. Tarore I guess is a good example, looked good before we got him, had a decent season after he left us. As above I thought he'd be ace for it just didn't happen. There is something we do to them, maybe it's the "fullback hate train", not sure I or anyone else on here really has that much impact. I suspect though it's more internal to the club a succession of poor management appointments, a toxic environment, we just don't seem to have the environment where players come to us and get better. Although to be fair Milanovic has come on well.

Willmering being terrified, I genuinely felt sorry for him (so yes apologies for throw away line). He's  a young kid, has a good left foot, can pass and cross. Unfortunately he isn't particularity quick or strong, which is a hard thing in modern footy to make up for at fullback.

My terrified theory (and it's only a theory) that Carlo Robinho and co. coached him so much to retain the ball that he was scared to actually get forward and cross it (which was his strength) he seemed to be coached to "play the simple ball" all the time. Hopefully he flourishes at the Jets and has a decent career, along with Grozos, Natta etc. Shame Willmering doesn't have Russell's athleticism.

Natta there's another one who looked great when he came into the team, didn't really push on with us, had a shocker against us the other week, but I think he's still got the potential to be a good player.

Aspro was another one he looked like a future socceroo when he came in, didn't progress with us, although ended up doing ok at other clubs

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by StringerBellend

[Sithslayer1991]

I would argue Russell is the one the club destroyed his development. Because his issue really was game consistency. He would come in and out of the squad then had that big injury. It was positional awareness that really that can be coached in.

Anyway LB. Club has a decision to make to either bring in a CDM or bring a LB to the squad. That's why I am in favour of Mata playing CDM. He has the experience and for the team its best benefit for his skills. We have Sapsford as that 2nd striker false 9 and he is growing, Plus (sigh) Antonsson and Temelkosvki as cover. The need atm is CDM and you can have Scicluna, Priestmann hang back a bit for defensive cover while Mata does his thing. That way club can look out to loan a player for LB position using that final visa spot.

[WHACKO]

2 hours ago, Davo said:

Traore was a strong A-League player, went and played as a regular starter in Europe, came back to Australia, wasn't good for us, then moved back to Victory and immediately went back to being a strong A-League player with a goal and four assists from fullback last season in a team that made the grand final.

Russell was good for us, had a horrible injury which set him back, and as soon as he started playing poorly the fans got on his back and he was shipped out. Now a regular starter in a WU side that's above us in the table having conceded half the number of goals we have. Also you say it's not about hate but did he cut you off in traffic or kick your dog, because your vendetta against him last season certainly felt personal.

It's no wonder Wilmering looked terrified. He was 20 years old in that game, only had a dozen appearances for the first team, and as a boyhood fan of the club he would had seen the fullback hate train come for all the fullbacks you listed above.

A couple of years ago I looked up how players went when they transferred from another A-League club to us, or from us to another A-League club, covering all transfers since Popa left. For 74% of players we signed from other A-League clubs, their old club finished above us in the subsequent season. 67% of players who left us for another A-League club went on to finish above us in the subsequent season. Four players left us and won a trophy in the following season with another club. You can't just say "all crap" when they're able to do it at other clubs, both before and after playing for us.

It's the club. It's too much of a trend to ignore. Players who play well for other sides and that we're excited to sign, play poorly for us and are run out of the club in a hail of rotten tomatoes, then go to another club and revert back to being good players. It's the top management, some of the coaching hires, the culture at the club.

Been saying that for awhile now...this club is like the Bermuda Triangle. 

Good players come here and just disappear. 

[StringerBellend]

55 minutes ago, Sithslayer1991 said:

I would argue Russell is the one the club destroyed his development. Because his issue really was game consistency. He would come in and out of the squad then had that big injury. It was positional awareness that really that can be coached in.

Anyway LB. Club has a decision to make to either bring in a CDM or bring a LB to the squad. That's why I am in favour of Mata playing CDM. He has the experience and for the team its best benefit for his skills. We have Sapsford as that 2nd striker false 9 and he is growing, Plus (sigh) Antonsson and Temelkosvki as cover. The need atm is CDM and you can have Scicluna, Priestmann hang back a bit for defensive cover while Mata does his thing. That way club can look out to loan a player for LB position using that final visa spot.

I know apparently I'm sort of train driver of misery or something.

But Russel and genuinely id love other people's views.

Like you say his positional awareness is/was poor, and I'd add his general decision making too both with the ball and without. 

This can be coached but,  that should have happened as came through youth football and the academy system.

Sure that gets refined with experience in the top team, but if you haven't got the fundamentals when playing first team footy it does seem very late.

I'm not hating (maybe I am) but for mine he's clearly a good athlete (which you sort of can't coach) and would probably be decent at lot of sports.

But he looks like he started football late (no idea if he did). His awareness and decision making is lacking and his first touch isn't great either.

Losing over a year to injury has further delayed his development.

Also the rude boy did him no favours when he brought him on the left to make Lolley when Lolley has disassembled Clisby (a left side player). 

I haven't watched WU this year apart from the game against us. I hope he goes on and plays well for them.  Maybe change of coach and environment is what he needs. 

 

[MartinTyler]

32 minutes ago, StringerBellend said:

I know apparently I'm sort of train driver of misery or something.

But Russel and genuinely id love other people's views.

Like you say his positional awareness is/was poor, and I'd add his general decision making too both with the ball and without. 

This can be coached but,  that should have happened as came through youth football and the academy system.

Sure that gets refined with experience in the top team, but if you haven't got the fundamentals when playing first team footy it does seem very late.

I'm not hating (maybe I am) but for mine he's clearly a good athlete (which you sort of can't coach) and would probably be decent at lot of sports.

But he looks like he started football late (no idea if he did). His awareness and decision making is lacking and his first touch isn't great either.

Losing over a year to injury has further delayed his development.

Also the rude boy did him no favours when he brought him on the left to make Lolley when Lolley has disassembled Clisby (a left side player). 

I haven't watched WU this year apart from the game against us. I hope he goes on and plays well for them.  Maybe change of coach and environment is what he needs. 

 

I'd tend to agree. I also wished for better things for him but he was too inconsistent with the basics and didn't have what I would call a "footballer's brain"