Armageddon Thread

[wendybr]

5 minutes ago, Carns said:

Was trying to find what the outcome of not being vaxxed or only having one would be. The press release from the Gov said they would announce the implications of not being vaxxed/were working out the details. Have teachers been provided with any more info yet?

The reason I ask is I know at my son's daycare the teachers either have to get the vax and/or get tested on a weekly basis for Covid. Could it be similar for teachers in schools (at least those with one vax) where they have to be tested regularly?

I've actually heard nothing at all, Carns.

Haven't been able to bring myself to contact anyone about it eg our Fed rep.

Our principal sort of said...no details are clear.

Gladys said 70% of teachers had received their first shot - not sure how she would know, other than a voluntary electronic survey that was sent around - that I'm guessing not everyone would have responded to - indicated that something like 66% of respondents  had started the process.

[Carns]

Just now, wendybr said:

Not entirely.

It's the first vax for AZ and the second dose for Pfizer that are more likely to bring about the adverse reaction.

Are you talking "normal" reactions to a vaccine or life threatening/hospital inducing issues? I was referring to stuff like the blood clotting in AZ (which is statistically very small).

As sonar said "normal" reactions vary considerably with both vax variants from nothing at all to being relatively sick for a few days.

[wendybr]

5 minutes ago, Carns said:

Are you talking "normal" reactions to a vaccine or life threatening/hospital inducing issues? I was referring to stuff like the blood clotting in AZ (which is statistically very small).

As sonar said "normal" reactions vary considerably with both vax variants from nothing at all to being relatively sick for a few days.

I guess normal reactions...

[marron]

15 minutes ago, wendybr said:

 

Haven't been able to bring myself to contact anyone about it eg our Fed rep.

 

Make sure you do!

(They won't have much info yet though I'd say).

[wendybr]

10 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Facebook being overly militant about things doesn't surprise me. The Chaser got deleted for a while for posting "fake news" about how Matt Canavan wants an all white Wiggles line-up.

On the bolded point, I disagree. It was heavily publicised when that one person died in New Zealand due to Pfizer. Perhaps the reason there is no reporting on it is because nothing has happened?

The statistics are plain. The chance of you dying from COVID all else equal is around 1-in-1,000. The chance of you dying from a vaccine is around 1-in-1,000,000. So it does not surprise me at all that the leading headlines today are "omg so many cases in Sydney and 4 dead".

You can read into that and say "yes there is a media conspiracy to block out negative vaccine headlines" or look at the plain numbers and realise that the more likely reason is the fact that the event hasn't happened in a while.

Fair enough, Unlimited.

Is the death rate as low as 1-1000?

I know it's a very small percentage who die...and that 4-5% will get sick enough to be hospitalised.

[wendybr]

4 minutes ago, marron said:

Make sure you do!

(They won't have much info yet though I'd say).

Anything said at your school?

[Stokz]

14 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

Facebook being overly militant about things doesn't surprise me. The Chaser got deleted for a while for posting "fake news" about how Matt Canavan wants an all white Wiggles line-up.

On the bolded point, I disagree. It was heavily publicised when that one person died in New Zealand due to Pfizer. Perhaps the reason there is no reporting on it is because nothing has happened?

The statistics are plain. The chance of you dying from COVID all else equal is around 1-in-1,000. The chance of you dying from a vaccine is around 1-in-1,000,000. So it does not surprise me at all that the leading headlines today are "omg so many cases in Sydney and 4 dead".

You can read into that and say "yes there is a media conspiracy to block out negative vaccine headlines" or look at the plain numbers and realise that the more likely reason is the fact that the event hasn't happened in a while.

How did you work out the 1-1000 chance of dying from Covid?

Current death rate is 0.46% for Syd Delta outbreak?

And the death rate is greatly affected by your age. 

 

[wendybr]

36 minutes ago, marron said:

No details yet.

Wendy is that because you aren't going to get vaxxed or because of timing or something else? Apologies if that's too personal, no need to answer if you'd rather not!

No vax yet.

Was hoping for Novavax - which was due here in July, but I don't think it's even going to get off the ground at all, sadly.

A real lot of people here and OS were hoping for that.

Not sure what I'll do.

I'm hoping there will be developments - not sure that state mandated Health Orders would override anti-discrimination laws - and a legal challenge is being mounted, but I still have to look into that. On behalf of workers in all sorts on industries, not just teachers, as I understand.

I think this will probably open a whole can of very divisive worms.

[marron]

12 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Anything said at your school?

Nope, i'll let you know if I hear anything.

[Cynth]

43 minutes ago, Stokz said:

Yea 2 people to be honest, close family friend - women in her 20s, and a mate - early 30s. Both said they felt like **** for about 4-5 days. But after that was back to normal.

I don’t know anyone that had adverse reaction - but I don’t know that many people that had the vaccine either.
 

My immediate family, parents 60s, sister, sisters family, my wife’s family (brother, sister, parents in 60s) all haven’t had the vax yet. 

Hey Stokz, thanks for replying, it’s a bit forward of me to ask. The reason I asked was to make the point that often our points of view are driven by the lens we look through. Yours appears to be knowing some with a small adverse reaction, getting sick for a few days is common, and you didn’t mention whether you know many people with Covid. And so I imagine your perception of risk of Covid is low, so your perception of need for a vaccine is also low. 
 

For me, my job has been overrun with Covid issues. Staff sick in the hospital, while offices closing down due to Covid spread, young people having no-one to care for them because of agencies needing to get staff to self isolate. Young people in hospital with Covid and emergency responses to support health staff to respond to the young people we care for ( I work with kids in Out of Home Care). In addition I have had personal experiences with Covid too both with family overseas and friends here. One of my friends here unfortunately has long Covid and its been 18 months (she was in Ruby Princess). So the virus has been close to home for me. So my lens means the perception of risk of Covid is high. I have HUGE amounts of people around me vaccinated, both work and home and all are fine. I had an aunt who went to hospital with low platelets but she’s fine now too. So the risk from the vaccine to me is low too. 
 

Anyway that’s just a point I was wanting to make. The lens we look through matters. 

[wendybr]

4 minutes ago, Cynth said:

, and you didn’t mention whether you know many people with Covid. 
 

Pretty sure the 2 people Stokz mentioned were people he's mentioned here before as having Covid, and not having very bad symptoms?

[Cynth]

1 minute ago, wendybr said:

Pretty sure the 2 people Stokz mentioned were people he's mentioned here before as having Covid, and not having very bad symptoms.

So again. Shows the lens is probably that the risk of Covid is low.
 

Many high profile activists who are anti mask anti vaccine who have then contracted serious Covid express regret that they didn’t vaccinate, many of whom then died. Their perspective changed with direct experience as did often their families. 

[Unlimited]

15 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Fair enough, Unlimited.

Is the death rate as low as 1-1000?

I know it's a very small percentage who die...and that 4-5% will get sick enough to be hospitalised.

 

11 minutes ago, Stokz said:

How did you work out the 1-1000 chance of dying from Covid?

Current death rate is 0.46% for Syd Delta outbreak?

And the death rate is greatly affected by your age. 

 

They're estimates but if you want me to get into the numbers then fine

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Case Fatalities range from 0.1% (Bhutan) to Yemen (18.7%) but it seems lots are around the 2% mark. So really, it's 1-in-50 worldwide. If you want to "control" for the country, Australia's death rate is 1.8% according to the same link.

Now, deaths from vaccines?

Let's look at US data (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html)

This says from 369 million doses, they had 7,218 deaths. That is 0.0020%. They also note "DA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem"

In Australia, data seems harder to find but https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-02/cph-tga-links-two-more-blood-clotting-deaths-to-covid19-vaccine/100429920

Says that 9 deaths from AstraZeneca from around 9.6 million AZ doses. Pfizer has none (https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-02-09-2021).

So let's compute some simple probabilities:

On average, how likely are you to die from COVID?

Worldwide, seems about 2%. In Australia, around 1.8%.

On average, how likely are you to die from a vaccine?

Worldwide, extrapolating from the US, it's 7218/369000000 = 0.002%.

In Australia, 9/9600000 = 0.00009%. Even less if I included all the Pfizer ones.

[Cynth]

3 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

 

They're estimates but if you want me to get into the numbers then fine

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Case Fatalities range from 0.1% (Bhutan) to Yemen (18.7%) but it seems lots are around the 2% mark. So really, it's 1-in-50 worldwide. If you want to "control" for the country, Australia's death rate is 1.8% according to the same link.

Now, deaths from vaccines?

Let's look at US data (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html)

This says from 369 million doses, they had 7,218 deaths. That is 0.0020%. They also note "DA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem"

In Australia, data seems harder to find but https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-02/cph-tga-links-two-more-blood-clotting-deaths-to-covid19-vaccine/100429920

Says that 9 deaths from AstraZeneca from around 9.6 million AZ doses. Pfizer has none (https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-02-09-2021).

So let's compute some simple probabilities:

On average, how likely are you to die from COVID?

Worldwide, seems about 2%. In Australia, around 1.8%.

On average, how likely are you to die from a vaccine?

Worldwide, extrapolating from the US, it's 7218/369000000 = 0.002%.

In Australia, 9/9600000 = 0.00009%. Even less if I included all the Pfizer ones.

I’m glad you clarified this because I knew the risk of death from Covid was almost 2% (1 in 50 to 1 in 100). I kept wondering why you were saying 1 in 1000

Edited September 4, 2021 by Cynth

[Stokz]

Have a look here at some adverse reactions: https://instagram.com/ourvoicesmatter_official?utm_medium=copy_link

 

[wendybr]

2 minutes ago, Unlimited said:

 

They're estimates but if you want me to get into the numbers then fine

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Case Fatalities range from 0.1% (Bhutan) to Yemen (18.7%) but it seems lots are around the 2% mark. So really, it's 1-in-50 worldwide. If you want to "control" for the country, Australia's death rate is 1.8% according to the same link.

Now, deaths from vaccines?

Let's look at US data (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html)

This says from 369 million doses, they had 7,218 deaths. That is 0.0020%. They also note "DA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem"

In Australia, data seems harder to find but https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-02/cph-tga-links-two-more-blood-clotting-deaths-to-covid19-vaccine/100429920

Says that 9 deaths from AstraZeneca from around 9.6 million AZ doses. Pfizer has none (https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-02-09-2021).

So let's compute some simple probabilities:

On average, how likely are you to die from COVID?

Worldwide, seems about 2%. In Australia, around 1.8%.

On average, how likely are you to die from a vaccine?

Worldwide, extrapolating from the US, it's 7218/369000000 = 0.002%.

In Australia, 9/9600000 = 0.00009%. Even less if I included all the Pfizer ones.

Thanks Unlimited.

TBH though - the vaccine reactions are only one cause of hesitancy, I think.

It's the interference with the immune system of MRNA/DNA technology, and the potential long term, and currently unknowable effects, that make many people wary.

Plus the warnings about how vaccines for a very unstable virus (as opposed to stable ones that current vaccines are able to eliminate your chances of getting) are likely to worsen the pandemic. That's another tunnel of the rabbit hole you don't want to know about.

[sonar]

What is ivermectin?

Ivermectin is a prescription drug. It comes as an oral tablet, topical cream, and topical lotion.

Ivermectin oral tablet is available as the brand-name drug Stromectol. It’s also available as a generic drug. Generic drugs usually cost less than the brand-name version. In some cases, they may not be available in every strength or form as the brand-name drug.

Why it’s used

Ivermectin oral tablet is used to treat infections of parasites. These include parasitic infections of your intestinal tract, skin, and eyes.

How it works

Ivermectin belongs to a class of drugs called anti-parasitic drugs. A class of drugs is a group of medications that work in a similar way. These drugs are often used to treat similar conditions.

Ivermectin oral tablet works by binding to parts inside the parasite. It eventually paralyzes and kills off the parasite, or it stops adult parasites from making larvae for a while. This treats your infection.

Ivermectin side effects

Ivermectin oral tablet may cause drowsiness. It can also cause other side effects.

More common side effects

The side effects of this drug depend on the condition being treated.

The more common side effects of this drug when it’s used to treat intestinal infections include:

tiredness

loss of energy

stomach pain

loss of appetite

nausea

vomiting

diarrhea

dizziness

sleepiness or drowsiness

itchiness

The more common side effects of this drug when it’s used to treat skin and eye infections include:

joint pain and swelling

swollen and tender lymph nodes

itching

rash

fever

eye problems

If these effects are mild, they may go away within a few days or a couple of weeks. If they’re more severe or don’t go away, talk to your doctor or pharmacist.

Serious side effects

Call your doctor right away if you have serious side effects. Call 911 if your symptoms feel life-threatening or if you think you’re having a medical emergency. Serious side effects and their symptoms can include the following:

Pain in your neck and back

Serious eye problems. Symptoms can include:

redness

bleeding

swelling

pain

loss of vision

Shortness of breath

Inability to control urination

Inability to control bowel movements

Trouble standing or walking

Confusion

Extreme tiredness

Extreme drowsiness

Seizures

Coma

Low blood pressure, especially when you get up after sitting or lying down. Symptoms can include:

lightheadedness

dizziness

fainting

Severe skin reactions. Symptoms can include:

severe rash

redness

blistering skin

peeling skin

Liver damage. Symptoms can include:

tiredness

nausea

vomiting

loss of appetite

pain on the right side of your stomach

dark urine

yellowing of your skin or the whites of your eyes

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ivermectin-oral-tablet

[wendybr]

5 minutes ago, Stokz said:

Have a look here at some adverse reactions: https://instagram.com/ourvoicesmatter_official?utm_medium=copy_link

 

That's probably the legal challenge I heard about.

In the US - there's a Campaign "I want to be Heard"  - of people who have had serious long term reactions - who are not able to have their voices heard,  say... in the media.

Wasn't able to find it last time I looked, though.

 

[mack]

6 minutes ago, wendybr said:

That's probably the legal challenge I heard about.

In the US - there's a Campaign "I want to be Heard"  - of people who have had serious long term reactions - who are not able to have their voices heard,  say... in the media.

Wasn't able to find it last time I looked, though.

 

It's probably an astroturf campaign by the Republicans anyway.

[Cynth]

The problem with these adverse outcome sites is that they are like VAERS. They are just correlational reactions. It’s not an adverse reaction just because these things happen at a similar time frame because human have medical issues all the time and so some will coincide with the vaccine. Just say I started vomiting and got a huge rash two days after the vaccine, it may be a response to the vaccine or it might be that I have an unrelated illness.  

[Davo]

Why is unknown long term effects of the vaccine a reason not to get it, but the unknown long term effects of COVID not a more compelling reason to get it?

[Cynth]

 

[wendybr]

2 minutes ago, Cynth said:

The problem with these adverse outcome sites is that they are like VAERS. They are just correlational reactions. It’s not an adverse reaction just because these things happen at a similar time frame because human have medical issues all the time and so some will coincide with the vaccine. Just say I started vomiting and got a huge rash two days after the vaccine, it may be a response to the vaccine or it might be that I have an unrelated illness.  

Yes- sure.

But by that same token, how many deaths have been "with Covid" on top of many comorbidites that could have lead imminently to end of life scenarios, rather than "of Covid"?

The death rate of people minus those deaths of people past the age of life expectancy, and in aged care facilities (with comorbidities that meant their health was severely compromised already) is perhaps what should have determined how this pandemic was managed.

I know that might sound harsh - but in hindsight, I'm not sure the right balance has been reached - considering the terrible toll this is taking on so many other people throughout society.

And I do know there are many others of all ages who have health issues that absolutely needed to be factored into responses.

 

What mess it all is.

[Cynth]

3 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Yes- sure.

But by that same token, how many deaths have been "with Covid" on top of many comorbidites that could have lead imminently to end of life scenarios, rather than "of Covid"?

The death rate of people minus those deaths of people past the age of life expectancy, and in aged care facilities (with comorbidities that meant their health was severely compromised already) is perhaps what should have determined how this pandemic was managed.

I know that might sound harsh - but in hindsight, I'm not sure the right balance has been reached - considering the terrible toll this is taking on so many other people throughout society.

And I do know there are many others of all ages who have health issues that absolutely needed to be factored into responses.

 

What mess it all is.

Sure the stats are important. But if you have comorbidities and die with Covid from what I understand, the doctor puts the primary cause of death on the certificate. So if you would not have died of those comorbidities right then if you didn’t have Covid then it’s a Covid death right? It’s no less a Covid death if someone has other health issues. 

[wendybr]

1 hour ago, Cynth said:

 

I've watched him before.

He is a compelling speaker - and looks at both sides.

Not sure he isn't paid for by the vaccine companies though - yes I hear myself  - the final message is always "get vaccinated"

Here was one of his best...

 

[Cynth]

7 minutes ago, wendybr said:

I've watched him before.

He is a compelling speaker - and looks at both sides much better than some others.

Not sure he isn't paid for by the vaccine companies though - yes I hear myself  - the final message is always "get vaccinated"

Here was one of his best...

 

Oh Wendy. 

[wendybr]

4 minutes ago, Cynth said:

Oh Wendy. 

Hehehe!

[Cynth]

2 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Hehehe!

Lol

[wendybr]

He lathers on the "I love you guys so much" muck too much - and is a celebrity Dr - rather than one who works in an ICU - that's for sure.

Certainly couldn't be a more charismatic, attractive advocate for getting the vaccines - even though he does throw in some of the hesitancy arguments.

He pounces every time anything negative about vaccines comes up - and it's a smooth presentation.

Give me good old John Campbell every time for an authentic discussion.

He's always pro vax - but has serious questions about serious issues that need discussion.

[Davo]

38 minutes ago, wendybr said:

Yes- sure.

But by that same token, how many deaths have been "with Covid" on top of many comorbidites that could have lead imminently to end of life scenarios, rather than "of Covid"?

The death rate of people minus those deaths of people past the age of life expectancy, and in aged care facilities (with comorbidities that meant their health was severely compromised already) is perhaps what should have determined how this pandemic was managed.

I know that might sound harsh - but in hindsight, I'm not sure the right balance has been reached - considering the terrible toll this is taking on so many other people throughout society.

And I do know there are many others of all ages who have health issues that absolutely needed to be factored into responses.

 

What mess it all is.

But by that line of reasoning wouldn't that also mean removing people from the road toll if they die in a car crash while being past life expectancy and having comorbidities?