A-League & 2nd Tier Expansion Thread V2

[Taurus]

2 hours ago, theguyyouwishyouwere said:

pretty sure southwest is your hood, Pops

That's where I'll be tonight 

[Prydzopolis]

Intetesting comments in this thread in relation to the second division & a potential tv deal with sbs

[mack]

SBS might show it but they ain't paying for it. 100% nailed on.

[Prydzopolis]

[Hughesy]

On 23/08/2018 at 9:59 PM, mack said:

SBS might show it but they ain't paying for it. 100% nailed on.

Good. I'm sick of how influential the TV networks are becoming on all sport in Australia. Letting the league establish itself without tv network intervention would be a good thing and we could actually see a spread of teams across the country. Id'd prefer that to the Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne orders we get now from Fox... 

Same goes for A-League expansion, you can't help but imagine what difference there'd be with the next two teams if tv had nothing to do with it. Something that really concerns me was a comment O'Rourke made a couple of months back in an interview when asked why we cant expand to 14 instead of just 12. He basically said that the FFA cant do that to Fox because they'll have to find another time slot for the 7th game each week... I almost choked when I heard that. Since when is Foxtel's scheduling the FFA's problem to worry about?

Anyway... RE: South West Sydney bid - that would have to be one of the most narrow minded decisions ever made if they were given the nod. Forget being the same city as an existing team, it's almost down to the exact same suburb... May as well go and base a team out of Randwick too while they're at it. I'm feeling as though this shouldn't be called 'expansion' but simply 'addition' if they're just gonna keep servicing the same places...

[btron3000]

2 hours ago, hughsey said:

Something that really concerns me was a comment O'Rourke made a couple of months back in an interview when asked why we cant expand to 14 instead of just 12. He basically said that the FFA cant do that to Fox because they'll have to find another time slot for the 7th game each week... I almost choked when I heard that. Since when is Foxtel's scheduling the FFA's problem to worry about?

God forbid two games be played at the same time! Oh the humanity!

[mack]

Using Eastern Times

Friday 7pm

Saturday 3 games between 3pm and 8pm

Sunday 2 games between 3pm and 6pm.

For the final game you could broadcast games earlier or later if the teams are from Perth or New Zealand without it impacting on the game itself, if you had a Canberra or Tasmanian team you should take advantage of the lower temperatures by playing their home games at 2pm on either day.

It's not hard. It's just an excuse.

[Flytox]

1 hour ago, mack said:

Using Eastern Times

Friday 7pm

Saturday 3 games between 3pm and 8pm

Sunday 2 games between 3pm and 6pm.

For the final game you could broadcast games earlier or later if the teams are from Perth or New Zealand without it impacting on the game itself, if you had a Canberra or Tasmanian team you should take advantage of the lower temperatures by playing their home games at 2pm on either day.

It's not hard. It's just an excuse.

3.00 pm games for a summer competition is not a good idea.  Maximum temperatures in summer in Canberra are slightly higher than at Parramatta.  It is cooler in the evening though.  If you get a nor-westerly wind on a hot summer's day in Hobart there wouldn't be any football played.  Temperature around 40 happen during heatwaves in November, December and January.

[Flytox]

Hughsey,

There are 550k registered players in Australia and nearly 200k of them are in Sydney.  Why is giving these players a fair opportunity in their city by adding another club any less expansion than giving players in another location the opportunity with a local club?

Examples of locations:-

ACT, 16k players and 650k population in the wider region,

Illawarra, 12k players and 450k population,

South West Sydney, 22k players and 650k population,

Southern Expansion, 30k+ players and 660k population (excluding Illawarra),

Team 11, 6k players and 1m population.

 

With regard to South West Sydney their proposed home ground is 31k from Western Sydney Stadium which is 22k from Allianz Stadium.  Its not really the next suburb.

[mack]

35 minutes ago, Flytox said:

3.00 pm games for a summer competition is not a good idea.  Maximum temperatures in summer in Canberra are slightly higher than at Parramatta.  It is cooler in the evening though.  If you get a nor-westerly wind on a hot summer's day in Hobart there wouldn't be any football played.  Temperature around 40 happen during heatwaves in November, December and January.

A quick googling suggest a lot of the time the average high is around 22 degrees in both cities. I suppose you could always say "we're setting these games to 3pm to start with, but we'll look at forecasts and move the games if required" and tell Fox Sports to suck a lemon if they complain, not that they'd probably care much about Tasmania or Canberra in terms of their broadcasting in the first place.

If it turns out setting them for 3pm causes too many issues permanently move their games to 5pm and Fox Sports can just deal with broadcasting two games at the same time.

[Hughesy]

4 hours ago, Flytox said:

Hughsey,

There are 550k registered players in Australia and nearly 200k of them are in Sydney.  Why is giving these players a fair opportunity in their city by adding another club any less expansion than giving players in another location the opportunity with a local club?

Examples of locations:-

ACT, 16k players and 650k population in the wider region,

Illawarra, 12k players and 450k population,

South West Sydney, 22k players and 650k population,

Southern Expansion, 30k+ players and 660k population (excluding Illawarra),

Team 11, 6k players and 1m population.

 

With regard to South West Sydney their proposed home ground is 31k from Western Sydney Stadium which is 22k from Allianz Stadium.  Its not really the next suburb.

I understand what you’re saying but my question remains: why can’t we spread out before we start trying to service areas that already have (some form of coverage) from existing teams? It’s (supposed to be) a national league. If there’s that many people registered in Sydney then I’d be asking why there isn’t more support for both existing Sydney teams. 

My use of the word suburb is not meant to be that literal, but let’s face it though, the people of the south west are very well represented and feel so too, by WSW. It’s nothing like the old “All of Sydney” FC back in the day where people this side of the bridge felt no association with them. They’re not exactly screaming out for their own team down that way.

Our nations capital still doesn’t have a side yet we are talking about not just putting another team in Sydney but another team in Western Sydney. That’s getting way too concentrated. Are we going to make our way through all the various compass bearings throughout Sydney before deciding to spread out? 

For as long as we have only one professional division comprised of a measly 10 teams (plus 3 states/territories completely unrepresented); concentrating them to the extent that’s being proposed can’t be justified. 

[Flytox]

8 hours ago, hughsey said:

I understand what you’re saying but my question remains: why can’t we spread out before we start trying to service areas that already have (some form of coverage) from existing teams? It’s (supposed to be) a national league. If there’s that many people registered in Sydney then I’d be asking why there isn’t more support for both existing Sydney teams. 

My use of the word suburb is not meant to be that literal, but let’s face it though, the people of the south west are very well represented and feel so too, by WSW. It’s nothing like the old “All of Sydney” FC back in the day where people this side of the bridge felt no association with them. They’re not exactly screaming out for their own team down that way.

Our nations capital still doesn’t have a side yet we are talking about not just putting another team in Sydney but another team in Western Sydney. That’s getting way too concentrated. Are we going to make our way through all the various compass bearings throughout Sydney before deciding to spread out? 

For as long as we have only one professional division comprised of a measly 10 teams (plus 3 states/territories completely unrepresented); concentrating them to the extent that’s being proposed can’t be justified. 

Why would we spread out when Sydney is underrepresented in the A-League?  Its produced half of the Socceroos and over half of the junior internationals decade after decade.  In times past those players had as many as 5 clubs in their city to play elite football for so the opportunity available was commensurate with the penetration of the game in Sydney.  In Sydney 4.0% of the population are registered players.  That penetration is only bettered in NNSW and Capital Football's territories where 5.0% of the population are registered players.  The average across Australia is 2.2% leaving everywhere else below 2.0% and Victoria and Qld bringing up the rear  at 1.1% and 1.4% respectively.  What is the point of expansion in locations where the game has little traction and the player base is low?  Surely they are best served by clubs in lower divisions.  A strong case can be made for the ACT on the basis of penetration of the game there and that it serves the 6k players in the southern region of NSW but its hard to find other locations where the player base, population and economy are such that they demand inclusion.  Bringing your "favourite" TV metrics into the discussion the largest regional areas have less than 2% of the population and less than 2% of STV subscribers so there is little in it for the broadcasters to expand in any of those markets and as in all other sports people in the regions adopt a club in the national competition as their club.

Some facts about Sydney that are relevant to the discussion are that its the largest population in Australia, has the highest % uptake of STV in the country, has the highest per capita FTA TV advertising spend 30% higher than Melbourne, provides over 40% of A-League viewers on Fox.

Sydney is tribal.  I was born and lived in south west Sydney for 40 years before moving to Lonnie in the late 80's.  Never in that period would I have ever considered myself to be part of western Sydney.  That description was for the part of the city served by Parramatta Rd and the Western rail line i.e. where my cousins lived.  The term Greater Western Sydney I'd never heard of until after I'd moved to Tassie.  South west Sydney has been a separate part of Sydney since Liverpool was established in 1810 as the gateway to the timber cutting and grazing region and was serviced by river until Liverpool Rd was opened in 1814.  It is appropriate for the region to have its own club.

[btron3000]

Going by the figures that you provided a couple of posts up Flytox, if could be argues that Southern Expansion deserves a shot and then it's a battle between South West Sydney and ACT.  Having two more teams in Sydney is silly at this point though.

There are a number of problems with only going off the metrics above though. First, there is no metric for "connection". I'm not talking about cut-through of junior numbers and their connection to the A-league, as the FFA have repeatedly shown they don't know how to harnesss the huge playing numbers.  I'm talking about connection to an area and identification to a club. Southern Expansion and its attempt to satisfy three areas of NSW is a case in point. They could claim huge numbers, but so what? It means nothing if people don't identify with the club. Look at Melbourne City.  Second biggest city, total hash of a club.

So you may say that South West Sydney people don't think of themselves as westies, but there'd be many that beg to differ.  And the connection is not just for the people that will follow that club, but for other football fans around the country. If we really want the game to grow, we need people to be able to identify with the clubs and envision their own area as part of the A-league. We need distinct entities that have their own stories to tell, their own feel. As Hughsey said, two western sydney teams now doesn't seem like a great idea to sell this as a diverse national competition.

Another important element is competition from a business sense. I did a job in Canberra once, was there for all of January. Everyone I met down there went to an Australian national cricket team T20 game because there was nothing else on. They have the same amount of people as South West Sydney and literally no competition in summer.

I also wonder whether - and am concerned that - the metrics you quote are the FFA's main consideration.  I think that each of these "bids" should be looked at differently. For example, the Team 11 one has a large population to draw from but it looks like there are few football players. Is it AFL land? Does that mean they should compete there or avoid it? Etc. I'd like to see the bids and see what they propose to succeed in their distinct area. So South-West Sydney should explain how they will differenatiate themselves from us. That is something that Melbourne City clearly failed to do.

One other thing - WHO is deciding this?? The Chairman has resigned, and the Board look likely to follow. Why would we want people who are not going to be here to be determining the future of a sport that they are getting booted out of for failing to provide any vision or leadership??

[billybob]

I've been thinking about the expansion of the A-league and the best way to set up a second division and eventually promotion and relegation.

Currently, 8 clubs are looking to be included in expansion. This should still go ahead, but all unsuccessful bids should start up the second division. If bids don't want to be in the second division (when it starts), then they withdraw from the process.

This will see 12 clubs in 8 league and 6 clubs ready for the second division (when it starts). 

The FFA then get expressions of interest for clubs to join the second division and grow it accept another 6 bids making it 12 (same as A-league) ready to begin 2020-21.

When required, the top two teams from second division are asked to join the A-league and 4 new teams are added to the second division (this will see both leagues now with 14 teams). This would be announced before the season starts, so that there can be no favouritism, i.e. team X won, so we are going to promote 2 teams this year. 

This continues until we get to 20 teams in each division, a total of 40 professional clubs in Australia. Would be at least 4 additional seasons before this is realised. 

Then yearly, there is promotion and relegation, but not automatically. The top team in second division plays off against the bottom team in the A-League in home and away legs.

[sonar]

21 minutes ago, billybob said:

I've been thinking about the expansion of the A-league and the best way to set up a second division and eventually promotion and relegation.

Currently, 8 clubs are looking to be included in expansion. This should still go ahead, but all unsuccessful bids should start up the second division. If bids don't want to be in the second division (when it starts), then they withdraw from the process.

This will see 12 clubs in 8 league and 6 clubs ready for the second division (when it starts). 

The FFA then get expressions of interest for clubs to join the second division and grow it accept another 6 bids making it 12 (same as A-league) ready to begin 2020-21.

When required, the top two teams from second division are asked to join the A-league and 4 new teams are added to the second division (this will see both leagues now with 14 teams). This would be announced before the season starts, so that there can be no favouritism, i.e. team X won, so we are going to promote 2 teams this year. 

This continues until we get to 20 teams in each division, a total of 40 professional clubs in Australia. Would be at least 4 additional seasons before this is realised. 

Then yearly, there is promotion and relegation, but not automatically. The top team in second division plays off against the bottom team in the A-League in home and away legs.

If you're going to have 20 teams per comp for prom and rel then there has to be auto relegation....at the end of regular season ( regardless of finals ) bottom 2 from A league go down top 2 from second tier go up....then the teams who finish 18th,17th 16th and 15th  play H & A prom & rel ties against 3rd,4th,5th and 6th from 2nd tier. If you want to improve the standard of the league then every game has to have meaning. Finish in the bottom 6 and you may be relegated....same for 2nd tier...finish in the top six you may get promoted.......incentives all around. No dead rubbers....or not many.

Edited September 3, 2018 by sonar

[Hughesy]

On 01/09/2018 at 10:51 AM, Flytox said:

Why would we spread out when Sydney is underrepresented in the A-League?  Its produced half of the Socceroos and over half of the junior internationals decade after decade.  In times past those players had as many as 5 clubs in their city to play elite football for so the opportunity available was commensurate with the penetration of the game in Sydney.  In Sydney 4.0% of the population are registered players.  That penetration is only bettered in NNSW and Capital Football's territories where 5.0% of the population are registered players.  The average across Australia is 2.2% leaving everywhere else below 2.0% and Victoria and Qld bringing up the rear  at 1.1% and 1.4% respectively.  What is the point of expansion in locations where the game has little traction and the player base is low?  Surely they are best served by clubs in lower divisions.  A strong case can be made for the ACT on the basis of penetration of the game there and that it serves the 6k players in the southern region of NSW but its hard to find other locations where the player base, population and economy are such that they demand inclusion.  Bringing your "favourite" TV metrics into the discussion the largest regional areas have less than 2% of the population and less than 2% of STV subscribers so there is little in it for the broadcasters to expand in any of those markets and as in all other sports people in the regions adopt a club in the national competition as their club.

Some facts about Sydney that are relevant to the discussion are that its the largest population in Australia, has the highest % uptake of STV in the country, has the highest per capita FTA TV advertising spend 30% higher than Melbourne, provides over 40% of A-League viewers on Fox.

Sydney is tribal.  I was born and lived in south west Sydney for 40 years before moving to Lonnie in the late 80's.  Never in that period would I have ever considered myself to be part of western Sydney.  That description was for the part of the city served by Parramatta Rd and the Western rail line i.e. where my cousins lived.  The term Greater Western Sydney I'd never heard of until after I'd moved to Tassie.  South west Sydney has been a separate part of Sydney since Liverpool was established in 1810 as the gateway to the timber cutting and grazing region and was serviced by river until Liverpool Rd was opened in 1814.  It is appropriate for the region to have its own club.

I cant argue with your stats and if anything, I’m all for more teams in general but there’s gotta be a stategy to it.  Loading up on Sydney because it’s low hanging fruit is lazy and boring, not to mention that like the AFL and NRL totally neglects the HAL’s claims of being a national competition. Football is loved nation wide here which is something that can’t be said for the other two codes and that is an underrated quality.

The FFA have played it safe for too long now and it hasn’t worked for them. They need to start branching out otherwise there’s never gonna be any growth. There’s also a very important lesson to be learnt imo from the NRL in the way that they’ve loaded up on Sydney and can’t seem to shake the argument that they need to cut some of those teams because of saturation. 

[pseudonym]

My main concern about extra Sydney teams is that we don't have the public transport infrastructure to support them

This Saturday - there is trackwork between Lithgow and Blacktown. That's going to affect people travelling to either Panthers vs Warriors at Homebush (05:30pm) and Swans vs GWS at Moore Park (04:30pm)

[Prydzopolis]

The issue behind many of the the current teams pushing to be included in the A-League is they are not prepared to be entered into a second division. It is either A-League or bust.

[matty]

Australia will struggle to support 16 professional football clubs let alone a second division. Sounds great, and I wish it was reality but... 

[Stokz]

Don't agree Matty.

The Uniteds, Marconi's, Sth Melbournes and the like have continued to succeed in the state competitions, with no light given to ever go back to the top.

Give them an open pyramid, watch these guys flourish. Most have their own boutique stadiums.

The playing levels are also aligning, we are hardly seeing any blow-outs in FFA cup matches, and NPL teams are matching AL teams, and that's with only being semi-pro and 2 foreigners.

I'm not advocating for a 20/20 comp, but perhaps a 14/14 and moving to a 16/16 comp over time.

1 auto promotion, 1 play-off spot. Transfer fees between clubs.

Start small, keep costs low. AL started with no TV money. 

Watch a lot of the 2nd div teams promote and focus on youth, develop a player, sell him to Syd FC, MV, for 250-500K. There's revenue to cover cost for 3-6 players potentially.

Give them a carrot and watch a lot of the teams,  be ready for it. 

 

 

 

[matty]

Much of what you say referring to on field results and PL clubs still being alive is irrelevant. 

Aleague clubs that are relegated will die. They exist in a different universe, they're franchises - most fans, corporate money and community support will not follow them. 

Without money, it won't work. 

I wish we had 16-20 clubs in each division with promotion and relegation but it won't happen. 

[Sithslayer1991]

That South Western Sydney team expansion team is interesting. Supposedly it is meant to engulf Liverpool, Fairfield, Camden and Campbelltown as it main supporter base. Camden and Campbelltown would be prepared to support the new team, as we could see whenever we had games down there the support wasn't as strong as when we went to Penrith or even the Olympic park. The concern comes to the Liverpool-Fairfield area because majority of these people are supporting the Wanderers, the new team could easily be another Melbourne City where everyone supports them because they aren't the Wanderers or Sydney FC (lol). I think its probably too early for the Southwest bid compared to the Canberra bid. Not saying it wouldn't succeed, I just don't think they would be as strong as a Canberra team

[Hughesy]

2 hours ago, matty said:

Much of what you say referring to on field results and PL clubs still being alive is irrelevant. 

Aleague clubs that are relegated will die. They exist in a different universe, they're franchises - most fans, corporate money and community support will not follow them. 

Without money, it won't work. 

I wish we had 16-20 clubs in each division with promotion and relegation but it won't happen. 

Agree. Expressing interest in only the top tier teams and competitions is a real cultural thing in Australia and even then, the majority of these people are also only interested in attending marquee and finals fixtures. It would take generations to reverse this and achieve the same unconditional support seen in the UK and throughout Europe that exists for teams regardless of what level they are playing.

[Stokz]

6 hours ago, matty said:

Much of what you say referring to on field results and PL clubs still being alive is irrelevant. 

Aleague clubs that are relegated will die. They exist in a different universe, they're franchises - most fans, corporate money and community support will not follow them. 

Without money, it won't work. 

I wish we had 16-20 clubs in each division with promotion and relegation but it won't happen. 

Sure you'll lose some clubs along the way. Who cares, they'll be replaced by someone else. Why reward mediocrity? 

Some might drop and have a 2-3k average in the 2nd div (CCM,Jets) but when they come back they could go back to their normal AL crowds.

Some might spend big to try get back in AL, others will get rid off the big earners and try focus on youth as they expect lower revenues.

If WSW got relegated, do you think the supporters will go and start supporting someone else., dont think so. They probably wouldnt be going week in week out, but you probably still get a 4-5K crowd average in 2nd div too. 

 

[mack]

If the Mariners get relegated maybe their cheapass stunt loving owner will sell them to someone who actually cares enough to build the foundation of a long-term future with or without the A-League.Most of the A-League clubs have been around long enough that they should have put down their own roots, and beyond a mere basic training facility & offices. The long-term viability of football clubs in Australia has been underpinned by ownership of a stadium & adjacent social club. Across the world most clubs are underpinned by ownership of their stadium.

[Flytox]

1 hour ago, mack said:

If the Mariners get relegated maybe their cheapass stunt loving owner will sell them to someone who actually cares enough to build the foundation of a long-term future with or without the A-League.Most of the A-League clubs have been around long enough that they should have put down their own roots, and beyond a mere basic training facility & offices. The long-term viability of football clubs in Australia has been underpinned by ownership of a stadium & adjacent social club. Across the world most clubs are underpinned by ownership of their stadium.

KPMG have a good report called "Stadium ownership - Competitive edge or unwanted burden?" that is worth a read. With average stadium costs in Australia working out at $10k per seat and O&M costs being at least 2% of capital cost per annum the risks are high.

 

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/au/pdf/2017/sports-stadium-ownership-competitive-costly.pdf

[mack]

Interesting read. It's definitely not something a club should go into blindly. Football is markedly behind the 8 ball compared to the likes of the AFL and to a lesser extend the NRL, who have wrangled insanely good deals that mean all three levels of Govt are pushing forward with stadiums & facilities that massively benefit the AFL, as we've seen with the Blacktown & Sydney Showground development for the AFL/GWS.

Or the Gold Coast where their Carrara Stadium was funded ~$100 million in Govt funding with the AFL kicking in $10 million (a drop in the bucket for them relatively speaking) but getting an immediate return on that because the AFL team there received all the money from the naming rights worth $3 million initially, with renewals 10/15 years later making that all back. And then getting even more govt funding to upgrade the stadium again for the Commonwealth Games.

If the potential political clout of a football team can be bought to assist with a properly developed holistic club 'precinct', even if it's on the similar scale to what some of the NPL clubs have, it would enable a club to have a chance to grow in a local community even if they were relegated.

[StringerBellend]

2 hours ago, Stokz said:

 

If WSW got relegated, do you think the supporters will go and start supporting someone else., dont think so. They probably wouldnt be going week in week out, but you probably still get a 4-5K crowd average in 2nd div too. 

 

You would hope so but given our crowds fell to 7k Mark at times last year, I’m not so sure

[Stokz]

20 hours ago, StringerBellend said:

You would hope so but given our crowds fell to 7k Mark at times last year, I’m not so sure

How much of that is due to SOP.

I would say close 70-80% of the reason.

We would have better crowds if we played at Marconi/Sydney United home grounds instead SOP.

[StringerBellend]

1 hour ago, Stokz said:

How much of that is due to SOP.

I would say close 70-80% of the reason.

We would have better crowds if we played at Marconi/Sydney United home grounds instead SOP.

I don’t know, I hate SOP as much as the next guy, but I still think if we had a decent season there (or better Still a season 1 style season) our average at SOP would be higher than the old parra.

On this place (fellow forumites) is the people who come win or lose. Which gives us a false view.

The majority of people will come when we win stuff.

Getting smashed 5-0 by your cross town rival in front of your biggest ever home crowd doesn’t exactly inspire people to come. 

Equally just assuming the new parra will make everything ok and people will all come back is a danger too. Steep stands or not people aren’t going to flock to watch the crap that we have served up in last two seasons.

We need to start winning stuff