Squad Development 2018/19 Part 2

[Erebus]

Lederer is not the sole owner. Why do people keep forgetting that there is a consortium of owners? He is the Chairman hence why people only single him out.

[Davo]

Probably because all the patronising letters to members have his name on them.

[Sithslayer1991]

Davidson would be awesome signing. The question of Roly.... I think the real question is do you keep Roly or ABJ? Roly has exploded into goal scoring- assist form since ABJ had the injury and ABJ has shown flashes of brilliance without our players having the end product.

I think you keep one of the two but not both and certainly would not put the two on the outer because both players potentially can strengthen an opposing A-league team. And I have limited belief in Australian playmakers as the good ones are usually overseas unless your Mitch Nichols or Luke Bratten.

[Zelinsky]

It's easy to be critical of popa's recruitment when taking it out of context.

In S4 it was almost perfect, with the exception of signing pio's gelato consuming twin brother. In S5 he opted for a deep squad, to compete in both hal and acl. Also, after the pio debacle, the owners seemed less keen on spending big on another potential dud. It backfired. The S6 squad was expensive, and we'll never know what might have been without the lure of a coaching gig in Turkey.

Popa could not fall back on youth players as squaddies. He had to fill up the squad with low cost seniors of limited quality, which is the main reason for the big turn around of players since the end of S2.

That we are linked with Mileusnic, Brattan, Davidson would suggest that we are not going to hire sub standard HAL journeymen again, but quality players for the starting 11.

[SBW]

1 hour ago, FCB said:

Popa could not fall back on youth players as squaddies. He had to fill up the squad with low cost seniors of limited quality, which is the main reason for the big turn around of players since the end of S2.

That we are linked with Mileusnic, Brattan, Davidson would suggest that we are not going to hire sub standard HAL journeymen again, but quality players for the starting 11.

It just seems the club is ok with signing fillers on the cheap, it gives us doubts about the club's recruitment and retention policy, the lack of quality in our squad hurt us a lot this season and you just feel the club are not willing to make improvements with our squad instead just rely on youth players and become the Athletico Bilbao of the A-League. It makes you think that will the club back Babbel next season by letting him sign players he needs to be competitive for next season?

But if the signing of Mileusinc and we have signed a classy German Midfielder for next season is true, then its a great step forward by club management to allow Babbel sign the players he wants.

[Redwog]

I think what we've skirted around is the truth that, after our first year without Wanderland, it was clear that times were going to be tough. The club drifted towards a conservative decision of letting things slide in terms of expenditure and ambition. Whether this is what prompted Popa's departure or it was a reaction to it I don't know. 

When Gombau was clearly not the right guy, and it wasn't just about results, this became even more the case. His poor recruitment targeting loyalty rather than the required talent showed that he didn't back himself to win over a group of new lads, but rather rest on past laurels. 

MB is still sifting through that. There is a lot of pressure on him and the club to get that right for next season. With SW coming in a year later, the club has a year's grace to get it right. Fan engagement, matchday experience but most importantly a competative squad which plays inspiring football regardless of shape and style. 

The murmurings, and they are early suggest he is making some sound moves. But as it has been all season ( how telling) this thread has bee  the most interesting one, and we wait and see. 

[wswnick]

Sounding like Chapman is heading to Japan or Europe

[Upthehill]

2 hours ago, SBW said:

It just seems the club is ok with signing fillers on the cheap, it gives us doubts about the club's recruitment and retention policy, the lack of quality in our squad hurt us a lot this season and you just feel the club are not willing to make improvements with our squad instead just rely on youth players and become the Athletico Bilbao of the A-League. It makes you think that will the club back Babbel next season by letting him sign players he needs to be competitive for next season?

But if the signing of Mileusinc and we have signed a classy German Midfielder for next season is true, then its a great step forward by club management to allow Babbel sign the players he wants.

Well I think the answer to that question is Yes, they are letting him do it. You can see that in all but one of his acquisitions, and I doubt he made the decision on Mahazi.

I don’t understand the general complaints about lack of spending. The gal between the cap and the spend floor is literally 10%. This means we are missing maybe 1 decent paycheque out of the squad. We can’t simply fill every spot with youth players unless we are paying them big bucks, which we aren’t. To me that says it’s been a run of really poor decisions by at 2 least coaches and whoever is making the recruitment decisions.

Babbel has had 20 rounds to pick his targets and it’s clear he is picking good ones. Let’s just wait and see

[BoyFromTheWest]

This is an interesting article that values all A league squads based on transfermarket data.

https://www.goal.com/en-au/lists/how-much-is-every-a-league-squad-worth/1r6kbryys9ueh173w63cnipcmp#18z5ganl6suhc1mswdjmi69xby

Vics = $22.8 million;  SFC = 20.6 million;  City = $17.3 million;  Perth = $15.5 million;  Roar = $15 million;  WSW = $13.8 million;  Jets =$ 12.5 million;  Nix = $12.1 million';  Adelaide = $11.8 million;  CCM = $10.7 million.

These are the value of players in the squad and obviously not what they cost - prices go up with success...  Others will understand the economics better than I.  I just found it interesting and not sure what it says about the real costs of players and how teams might manipulate salary caps.

[mack]

Transfermarkt data is meaningless in this context.

[Upthehill]

25 minutes ago, BoyFromTheWest said:

This is an interesting article that values all A league squads based on transfermarket data.

https://www.goal.com/en-au/lists/how-much-is-every-a-league-squad-worth/1r6kbryys9ueh173w63cnipcmp#18z5ganl6suhc1mswdjmi69xby

Vics = $22.8 million;  SFC = 20.6 million;  City = $17.3 million;  Perth = $15.5 million;  Roar = $15 million;  WSW = $13.8 million;  Jets =$ 12.5 million;  Nix = $12.1 million';  Adelaide = $11.8 million;  CCM = $10.7 million.

These are the value of players in the squad and obviously not what they cost - prices go up with success...  Others will understand the economics better than I.  I just found it interesting and not sure what it says about the real costs of players and how teams might manipulate salary caps.

It means nothing. It’s all about contract length, wage and age basically. It’s also self reported data. Last year Bellerin was valued at 4.5m for a buyout. Ignore it.

[BoyFromTheWest]

Thanks - shows my ignorance.  I still look at some of the teams and wonder how they get under the cap??!!!

[GunnerWanderer]

11 hours ago, Erebus said:

Lederer is not the sole owner. Why do people keep forgetting that there is a consortium of owners? He is the Chairman hence why people only single him out.

I’ve lost count the number of times u have made this comment  

does lederer sponsor ATB? 😜

as replied to your post already lederer is the only vocal one plus it is documented knowledge he inherited a billion dollar empire from his uncle and bought the club cheap compared to what they charged the sheiks for melb heart 

 

[wswnick]

3 minutes ago, GunnerWanderer said:

I’ve lost count the number of times u have made this comment  

does lederer sponsor ATB? 😜

as replied to your post already lederer is the only vocal one plus it is documented knowledge he inherited a billion dollar empire from his uncle and bought the club cheap compared to what they charged the sheiks for melb heart 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/western-sydney-wanderers-sold-20140529-zrrmx.html

The sale of the A-League’s newest club has been ongoing for almost a year, with sale figures mooted between $10 million and $15 million. It is estimated the final fee is around $12 million.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/manchester-city-buy-aleague-club-melbourne-heart-20140123-319zz.html

The deal which sees Heart sold for a figure of around $11.5 million to the City led consortium also includes the ownership group of the Melbourne Storm as minority shareholders with a 20 per cent stake.

 

[mack]

If Melbourne Heart were worth $11.5 million WSW should have been worth double that.

Uncle Frank gave his mate a nice sweet deal.

[Taurus]

12 hours ago, Erebus said:

Lederer is not the sole owner. Why do people keep forgetting that there is a consortium of owners? He is the Chairman hence why people only single him out.

IIRC, Lederer owns 32% (less than 1/3rd) of the franchise. 

As Chairman, he is the figurehead & therefore designated speaker on behalf of the Board of Directors. 

Buggared if I know where the myths eminate from, in relation to spending issues.

[matty]

17 hours ago, BoyFromTheWest said:

As I've said before, Popa had one of the highest paid squads (if not the highest) before he ditched us.  The Owners certainly put their hands in their pockets.  He had control over things and really was often ordinary in visa recruitment.  Let's be honest, this year he has a team of former Socceroos (plus one current one) - he's good with Australian players.  His main visa players were already there - so less chance to stuff it up.  Even when money was forked out he was 50:50 as to whether the recruitment was any good.  If I was an owner forking out on marquees, for instance, I would really want money's worth and I'm not sure over the 5-year run of Popa that was necessarily the case.

In terms of Club culture, yes things have changed but I suspect they always were going to change - they have to.  We were only ever going to be the new kids on the block with the initial burst of passion, enthusiasm and band-wagoners (more so because we were successful early!) for so long.  We have to grow up and face the ultimate long haul when things get tough, coaches change, players move, we have the eventual downturn in success...  Add to that the last 3 seasons of SOP that has drained passion and everything else from us - we are where we are.

I think that there was always going to be a change when we went from FFA darlings (because they owned us) to an independent club.  Things were pretty easy for us in many ways coming into the league and there were no expectations.  Now there are.  At some point the hard work of building a foundation for a club into the future must begin and that isn't easy.  Last year, with Popa shooting through and Gumby not being the right fit, took us backward (add SOP and it was disastrous!).  I don't think it is all on owners or Tsats.  They are the easy targets.  Too many 'fans' are fair weather band-wagoners and want/expect an easy ride every year - it won't happen.  But I hope that we are building a stronger foundation and working towards a more sustainable culture and club.  Popa did well but there was no foundation - it was chop and change every year and lacked stability and building culture and strong club identities that were there year in, year out.  I hope that is changing!

A well run club doesn't mean it needs to move away from a community feel, you can have both. 

[Davo]

Those transfermarkt values aren’t great for individuals but the error would average out to a degree over an entire squad. When you look at those numbers it appears to be a pretty good indicator of where the teams are at.

Perth, Victory and the smurfs are at the top in both squad value and league position. City are third in that list but underperforming for their value, which makes sense as they’re paying a marquee but not playing them. CCM are at the bottom, which is to be expected.

Adelaide are over performing which could be due to the way the club is run outside of the cap (good manager, usually have a good CEO).

Brisbane are underperforming, possibly because they’re the opposite of Adelaide in that they’ve sacked their coach, people get paid late and they can’t seem to do the simple stuff like stick numbers on to jerseys.

[GunnerWanderer]

8 hours ago, mack said:

If Melbourne Heart were worth $11.5 million WSW should have been worth double that.

Uncle Frank gave his mate a nice sweet deal.

Thanks Mack 

Point exactly the value of the franchise were not even close 

ATB boys on the lederer payroll 😛

[Zelinsky]

17 hours ago, SBW said:

It just seems the club is ok with signing fillers on the cheap, it gives us doubts about the club's recruitment and retention policy, the lack of quality in our squad hurt us a lot this season and you just feel the club are not willing to make improvements with our squad instead just rely on youth players and become the Athletico Bilbao of the A-League. It makes you think that will the club back Babbel next season by letting him sign players he needs to be competitive for next season?

But if the signing of Mileusinc and we have signed a classy German Midfielder for next season is true, then its a great step forward by club management to allow Babbel sign the players he wants.

We didn't lack quality players, we just didn't have enough of them.

January was the month when we needed Riera, Treejack, Ziegler, Raul and Snake fit and firing, not in sick bay or making costly mistakes. But that was always the risk the club took when going into the season with so few senior and so many junior players. We effectively played the middle part of the season with little more than one import, and it backfired.

Saying that: Ziegler's injury was the single biggest factor why we are struggling as much as we do. With him on the pitch in every game we would have ground out results (like we did in the cup game win in Melbourne) and we would be in the top half.

[Hughesy]

Signing fillers/squadies on the cheap is how the aleague operates, particularly with such a low salary cap. You can’t avoid that. Most of the money/spending arguments people throw around are unrealistic under the current conditions of the aleague.

[Erebus]

10 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

I’ve lost count the number of times u have made this comment  

does lederer sponsor ATB? 😜

as replied to your post already lederer is the only vocal one plus it is documented knowledge he inherited a billion dollar empire from his uncle and bought the club cheap compared to what they charged the sheiks for melb heart 

 

I wish. Means I won't have to pay operating costs out of my own pocket.

9 hours ago, Taurus said:

IIRC, Lederer owns 32% (less than 1/3rd) of the franchise. 

As Chairman, he is the figurehead & therefore designated speaker on behalf of the Board of Directors. 

Buggared if I know where the myths eminate from, in relation to spending issues.

This.

He is the Chairman hence the spokesman of the board/owners. Its like Vince McMahon, he is the Chairman of the WWE board and hence the public figure. Same as Slowy/Nikkou as the Chairman of the FFA Board.

I'm not on his payroll and I'll be the first to call for his head when the salary cap goes and we're tightarses. But I just point out the inconsistencies from WSW fans that seem to attack one guy. If anything, attack all of them because it'll be more accurate. You'd assume the "spending" has to be approved by the board, not just the one guy.

 

edit: just to be clear. ATB intend to remain independent of the club as it gives us freedom to criticise them without getting called in for a performance review 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Erebus

[Upthehill]

36 minutes ago, hughsey said:

Signing fillers/squadies on the cheap is how the aleague operates, particularly with such a low salary cap. You can’t avoid that. Most of the money/spending arguments people throw around are unrealistic under the current conditions of the aleague.

Finally someone who gets it!! The club is compelled under rule to spend at least 90% of the cap. You’re also heavily limited. Clubs don’t have the option to sign Mark ******* Milligan to sit on the bench.

[Erebus]

Popa in his first few years at WSW opted to sign an entire team of squaddies but whipped them into shape and had them competing for positions. It meant the squad rotation policy didn't have too much of an effect on field. It also helped in the ACL because he had the perceived depth to play both comps (remember we made the GF in Brisbane the same year we topped the ACL2014 group - flew to Hiroshima right after the Brisbane GF. It seems pundits all say we had a bad season when we won the ACL, they forget the group stage was played when we were 2nd behind Brisbane all season)

Other teams like SFC under Arnie, opted to spend all their money on 13 players and use them throughout the season. The rest of the squad are mediocre players that never get used. The risk is, if you have a couple injuries or suspensions, you're screwed. Arnie was lucky and didn't have any of those but was found out at the ACL because they didn't have the depth to compete in 2 comps.

[Burztur]

27 minutes ago, Erebus said:

edit: just to be clear. ATB intend to remain independent of the club as it gives us freedom to criticise them without getting called in for a performance review 

Until the Club offers you guys a fat contract

1 hour ago, hughsey said:

Signing fillers/squadies on the cheap is how the aleague operates, particularly with such a low salary cap. You can’t avoid that. Most of the money/spending arguments people throw around are unrealistic under the current conditions of the aleague.

This is where we need to be aggressive in exploiting the concessions. Front loading contracts, back loading, loyalty players, NPL and rookie players, coaching gigs etc.

[Zelinsky]

1 hour ago, Erebus said:

Popa in his first few years at WSW opted to sign an entire team of squaddies but whipped them into shape and had them competing for positions. It meant the squad rotation policy didn't have too much of an effect on field. It also helped in the ACL because he had the perceived depth to play both comps (remember we made the GF in Brisbane the same year we topped the ACL2014 group - flew to Hiroshima right after the Brisbane GF. It seems pundits all say we had a bad season when we won the ACL, they forget the group stage was played when we were 2nd behind Brisbane all season)

Other teams like SFC under Arnie, opted to spend all their money on 13 players and use them throughout the season. The rest of the squad are mediocre players that never get used. The risk is, if you have a couple injuries or suspensions, you're screwed. Arnie was lucky and didn't have any of those but was found out at the ACL because they didn't have the depth to compete in 2 comps.

Not quite. In S1 we had 13,14 players who played most games of the season, plus Tarek, Trifiro, Appiah and Gibbs who made more than just a few appearances. Covic, Beauchamp, NTS, Bridgey, Mooy, D'Apuzzo - none of them was a squaddie. One of the main reason why we won the title was that we had six imports who stayed injury free, as did all the local senior players. And they all had a point to prove or make.

No arguments from me regarding the ACL comments though.

[blameturner]

3 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

Thanks Mack 

Point exactly the value of the franchise were not even close 

ATB boys on the lederer payroll 😛

**** I wish mate.

[tardotz]

12 hours ago, mack said:

If Melbourne Heart were worth $11.5 million WSW should have been worth double that.

Uncle Frank gave his mate a nice sweet deal.

I agree that at that time WSW looked worth more than Heart but the selling price is dependent on a number of factors. The number of interested parties wanting to buy,  the money they have to spend and the most important....how much they want it.

With WSW there wasn't much interest reported, with Heart ....the sheiks wanted heart, the FFA knew money was not a problem so they asked for a higher price.

[LeeMarvin]

Deviating slightly off topic, but while we are talking about club ownership; What could possibly be the reason for Bakrie Group's interest in Brisbane Roar?

[mack]

Influence in Australia.