Wanderers Bombed By Newcastle Jets

[marron]

30 minutes ago, TheSweeper said:

  that whoever is in charge learns from these mistakes . 

And this is where a lot of the anger/disappointment/apathy/resentment/resignation is coming from.

Has the club learnt from the recruiting mistakes?

Has the club learnt from the fan engagement mistakes?

Has the coach learnt from the match day selection mistakes?

Has the keeper learnt from the brain explosion mistakes?

And so on and so forth.

Most of us can forgive the mistakes, and even forgive the repeated mistakes, as long as there is clear and obvious effort to be doing better.

So when we see signs of the recruitment being awful... when we see the security at the precinct actually getting WORSE.... when we see Riera/Llorente keep on getting picked....  when we see Vedran not giving a toss.... that is increasingly dispiriting.

 

 

Just on Babbel and his criticism of the young players (bear in mind I didn't watch the presser, so just going off what has been said here) , and culture, it's interesting - way back when, Osieck lost me when he smashed Oar in a post-game conference, who in that game (I forget now) had been one of the few players at least trying to run at the defence to try and crack it. We don't know the inner workings and the relationships obviously, but if we look at our best patches this season it's been the young guys and their enthusiasm driving that. So to single them out - even if their inexperience and inability to follow a game plan is the issue - just seems wrong. Then again, Australian football has oft been criticised for the way it rewards graft over skills. So who knows. But if I was Babbel and was going to rip someone's head off, it would be the older players who aren't showing any sign of leadership and the ones that clearly don't give a ****, rather than the young guys who are the future of the club. I like that he is honest, but as well, it's his job to get the players playing his plan, and to motivate them. It would be hard to imagine a situation in which pros could be less motivated, but, hey... that's his job.

[matty]

1 hour ago, WestSyd said:

What I am saying is whatever he is doing isn't enough, because MV and SFC ( and even Melb City) are far superior to us in every department. So he needs to ramp it up, or get some outside resources to do a better job.

That's not hating on him. That's just being realistic. Otherwise all his talk of a 'big club' is just that.

Is it the financiers fault or those managing the money? 

You make some hefty accusations without evidence.

From my wild guessing, we're a top 4 spender. 

[WestSyd]

2 minutes ago, matty said:

Is it the financiers fault or those managing the money? 

You make some hefty accusations without evidence.

From my wild guessing, we're a top 4 spender. 

You need to look up what 'accusations' actually means? I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just stating something that is obvious based on my observations of watching all A-league sides over the last 3 years.

Whatever money is being spent is not doing the job, whether it is not enough being spent or money mismanaged. I don't know the small details. That is for the club to work out, and Lederer would be in the best position to figure all that out. But it is obvious that we are behind the top 3 clubs due to being inferior in so many departments which I named. 

[GunnerWanderer]

Westsyd it could be our scouting agent and fitness people are **** but yes it could be we are cheap 

When it comes to player signings I get the feeling we are cheap 

players like ikon I’m sure (given he is at Perth) would have stayed but I get the feeling we **** around 

then again maybe hamill is on 500k a year and our cap is full given its a privately owned op we won’t ever know 

I know when the club sends out emails saying 25 tickets for 250 bucks on game day it gives the impression money is important moreso than winning 

make of that what you will

[WestSyd]

20 minutes ago, GunnerWanderer said:

Westsyd it could be our scouting agent and fitness people are **** but yes it could be we are cheap 

When it comes to player signings I get the feeling we are cheap 

players like ikon I’m sure (given he is at Perth) would have stayed but I get the feeling we **** around 

then again maybe hamill is on 500k a year and our cap is full given its a privately owned op we won’t ever know 

I know when the club sends out emails saying 25 tickets for 250 bucks on game day it gives the impression money is important moreso than winning 

make of that what you will

Let's face it. Arnie did a lot to turn SFC around. So sometimes it is a matter of finding the right people/s more than just money. But it up to the club to still find those right people. We might just be knocking on the wrong doors.

But regardless the club will need to spend more to be competitive, simply because MV, SFC and MC will spend more to maintain their dominance and edge. They will also be wary of us and look to provide better conditions and facilities so they can attract the best players over us. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by WestSyd

[TheSweeper]

42 minutes ago, GunnerWanderer said:

Westsyd it could be our scouting agent and fitness people are **** but yes it could be we are cheap 

When it comes to player signings I get the feeling we are cheap 

players like ikon I’m sure (given he is at Perth) would have stayed but I get the feeling we **** around 

then again maybe hamill is on 500k a year and our cap is full given its a privately owned op we won’t ever know 

I know when the club sends out emails saying 25 tickets for 250 bucks on game day it gives the impression money is important moreso than winning 

make of that what you will

When i see an email for 25 tickets for $250 on match day i know the people in charge are completely ****ed . 

I am struggling to give away free member tickets days in advance  and to think these idiots think someone is going to arrange 25 people on match day . 

[BoyFromTheWest]

I agree with some others that it isn't specifically money spent on players... that is the actual problem but how we recruit and how we get that info.  Popa was notorious for doing it all his way and it seemed hit and miss.  Arnie has built well on his Dutch (in particular) contacts.  Not sure who has been responsible for the last 15 months or so for recruiting - probably Gumby plus who?  It is a whole area that needs to be fixed and we need to develop the right formulas for ongoing building of a team.  Vics and SFC seem to have that right for the moment.  Popa actually did it well this year but we will see if he has learned from the past and what happens at Perth next year.

Players like Ikon were on loan and went back to their clubs.  I don't know what transpired after that.  Babbell has no clue, being very new to Oz, who is who in this zoo but he is hopefully a very quick learner.

On Babbel press conferences etc, one of the things i am wrestling with is the language/cultural thing.  His words and speech are more direct and we aren't used to that.  Is that because it is German culture/language/thinking then translated into English?  What is he like with the players?  All the interviews with players have them positive and learning a great deal under him (not always sure it shows).  Unlike last year there doesn't feel that there is change-room negativity or hostility.  I hear him more making generalised comments about playing in Oz and player attitudes that beating individuals over the head.  I didn't see his interview with Fox directly after the game on TV but understand he said he was shocked at the way players were little affected by a hard loss than in previous generations.  5 minutes after they are in the change-rooms they are paying with phones and carrying.  Apparently Kossie and others all agreed that this is a big issue for this generation of players and a major problem.  It is interesting.  I've said it before but I am constantly surprised by the lack of WSW culture that seems to exist in the team at the moment.  After 2-3 years of strong culture the following seasons with huge overhaul of players has changed things and gradually diminished what we had.  This combined with the off-field crap of FFA and poor fan relations, Soulless/SOP dampening down any spirit has left things pretty bland.  RBB battle hard every week to try and make things better but they are up against it.  Sadly, I am not sure what Popa's legacy really is.  What has he left us - or did he just leave?  Perhaps too much was around him?  He cut most of the players who had memory and last year did the rest.

[tardotz]

I have no problem with Babble saying it the way he sees it.  This is not kindergarten, the players are lucky to be in a job that most others would love to do and getting well paid for it at the same time. You would not find too many other jobs where you make massive mistakes and you keep your job. I am sure that if Babble had the option he would change half the team now unfortunately the system doesn't allow that and therefore he has to keep picking players from the lot he has.....next year (if he stays) he will have no excuse.

Edited February 3, 2019 by tardotz
Autocorrect

[Hughesy]

Investing is not spending money on marquee players, that’s just paying wages that are above average. Investing money into the club is building a completely new headquarters that sets up long term stability and growth which is exactly what Lederer is doing

[Davo]

I don’t buy the whole generational thing. The players at all the other clubs in the league are from the same generations and they aren’t throwing away leads and underperforming.

Feels more like older people playing the “millennials are lazy and don’t understand hard work” card.

[matty]

6 hours ago, WestSyd said:

You need to look up what 'accusations' actually means? I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just stating something that is obvious based on my observations of watching all A-league sides over the last 3 years.

Whatever money is being spent is not doing the job, whether it is not enough being spent or money mismanaged. I don't know the small details. That is for the club to work out, and Lederer would be in the best position to figure all that out. But it is obvious that we are behind the top 3 clubs due to being inferior in so many departments which I named. 

Mate, you were specifically accusing him of not doing enough, check your own post that I quoted. I don't understand why people keep accusing the owners of being tight when we're consistently among the highest spenders. 

To that point, without being silly about it, I think the owners have done over and above what can be expected as far as financing the club goes. I think the issue is club culture and that falls more on club management (CEO for example). 

So yes, I agree that Lederer and co need to sort out why the money isn't doing the job, and I'm sure they won't like the club wasting money. 

[Keithie]

Sadly the last 2 years have been dismal, last the players showed a distinct lack of respect for Gombau, including performances on the park. Gombau got the sack some think a little unfairly.

This team was testing all the top teams pre Christmas and finding ways to get beat , simple errors without scoring a goal. Remember Newcastle at spotless , we smashed them all over park and let a soft goal in , dribbled over the line, and conceded very late as we pushed for an equaliser. We are scoring goals now but still leaking them and that was only one. game. We were all tipping it was only a matter weeks before went on a good winning run Then this stupid summer of Heroes come along , well we certainly had no heroes !!!. 

The team is way below where they were, I think there is another mutiny on the at the moment probably led by Riera. Did any body notice Kwame Yebou getting stuck into Riera on Friday night, it was very strong from Kwame. 

If Central coast Mariners beat us this weekend and they will based on last weekends effort from both teams there will be some sort decision coming from the post mortem.

My tip is if we lose it will end Marcus Babbel's coaching career at the wanderers more likely by him quitting and getting on the first plane back to Germany or our leaders will sack him.

[WestSyd]

3 minutes ago, matty said:

Mate, you were specifically accusing him of not doing enough, check your own post that I quoted. I don't understand why people keep accusing the owners of being tight when we're consistently among the highest spenders. 

To that point, without being silly about it, I think the owners have done over and above what can be expected as far as financing the club goes. I think the issue is club culture and that falls more on club management (CEO for example). 

So yes, I agree that Lederer and co need to sort out why the money isn't doing the job, and I'm sure they won't like the club wasting money. 

My post you quoted is not accusing him of anything. It states what needs to be done if we want to catch the bigger clubs. Whether he does it or not doesn't really affect me as much as you think, and I don't in anyway hold any grudge towards him or hold him responsible for anything. I just call it as I see it. But in the end we are not a big club as he claims he wants us to be. 

Sydney FC and Melbourne Storm are the fittest clubs in their respective competitions because they have the best sports science available to them. Those are the areas I am talking about where we need to spend more money if we want to get an edge and keep up with the best clubs.

[smp]

9 hours ago, GunnerWanderer said:

@lloydy136

interesting in our region macarthur- if teams had blantant offsides in 9 10 And 11s the refs are encouraged to pull it up to avoid this situation 

point taken about coaches maybe doing the wrong thing i can see this side 

FWIW, in 2019 BDSFA has modified the national MiniRoo rules. Larger teams on larger fields starting at earlier age groups, and things like foul throws and offside enforced from an earlier age (U10 from memory, but I’d have to check). Game leaders were always encouraged to pull up the blatant offsides, but usually it was parents or the older youth players reffing, and they are rarely confident enough to do that. The idea that coaches are trusted to do the right thing has proven to not be successful, as too many coaches even at this level are more interested in thumping the ball into the back of the net as much possible instead of getting the basics right. It’s disappointing, and the coaches doing the right thing were often left disenchanted and disgruntled by the experience.

Scores are recorded from U5 but not publicised, and are in theory used to make sure teams are in the correct division the following year. We already do that internally at my club as we want to make sure that kids aren’t either thrashing or being thrashed - neither outcome is good for development.

I’m a fan of small-sided games, and it’s a system that has worked well in Europe for many years. The difference between us and Europe in my view is that elite coaching courses are significantly more expensive in Asia compared to Europe. If higher level coaching accreditation was more accessible, I reckon we’d have a better quality player coming through.

[Prydzopolis]

I'm all for the straight talking, we hated Gombau for the "results will come, we played well (losing 0-4), it's a process" blah blah blah & Babbel is the opposite. Good point on the translation differences, (I've noticed this with Sarri too) when you translate words from German/Italian they don't have the exact meaning in English, this can impact understanding & leads to (at least appearing more) direct style.

He was asked numerous times in the media whether he needs to try a different approach when it comes to man management. They make it sound like he has gone all Mourinho on the players when he is just being blunt. We make a mistake, he tells it like it is & doesn't sugar coat. He doesn't dig out individual players & we don't know what happens behind the scenes.

The problem with his direct management style is if he loses the dressing room, the players won't respond to him & then the club have to decide whether they stick with the player or coach. That's a problem for next season, not now. Right now, the club are looking at next season so its important not to look at our situation in a vacuum. 

To be honest, things that concern me right now: His ability to change a game tactically (pre/during game), the ability to galvanise a defence, ability to eliminate mistakes from his players & ability to influence the team between games.

Do the issues I've highlighted above change when next season he effectively starts from a clean slate? You hope so, but as marron as eluded, we have made some pretty huge mistakes as a club over the years. Will this end up undermining him? Will the same problems that have plagued this season come to the fore, if next season turns to ****?

We can be certain next season that: recruitment will be better; fitness & conditioning will be better; we won't be relying majority on youth; squad mix of youth/experience will be better; new stadium and; hopefully two new marquees

Lets just not put all our eggs into the new stadium basket. It doesn't do anything to solve the underlining problems than just paper over the cracks. Things need to get better in every department.

PS: How ******* hard is it to go to these games when you know a certain loss is on the cards? Had a pretty **** week & the last thing I needed was watching us get murdered by seventh on the table, when the final whistle went I wanted to be transported to my bed. All that keeps me going is knowing that when better times come, you cherish them all the more knowing you were there through all the **** times. When does this season end again?  

[mack]

oh no, the players who can't hold a lead and have copped 4 or more goals four times this season in just 17 games might be lost.

[LeeMarvin]

That Topor Stanley fellow playing in defence for the Jets is good isn't he.  We should get players like that.  Oh wait.....

[hawks2767]

11 hours ago, Prydzopolis said:

PS: How ******* hard is it to go to these games when you know a certain loss is on the cards? Had a pretty **** week & the last thing I needed was watching us get murdered by seventh on the table, when the final whistle went I wanted to be transported to my bed. All that keeps me going is knowing that when better times come, you cherish them all the more knowing you were there through all the **** times. When does this season end again?  

I doubt anyone felt that this match was a certain loss.

The only certainty is the same players making the same idiotic mistakes every week without fail.

 

[Erebus]

Our entire backline are fking frauds.

When your experienced players are the ones making all the mistakes then they come out and repeatedly say "the team has a lot of inexperience and we need to do better"

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM FFS

GTFO of my club you frakking passengers. You're supposed to be the leaders of the team yet you are leading by example of how to be absolutely useless and inept. Then Vedran has the hide to mouth "STFU" to the crowd voicing their disdain at the performance. 

GTFO.

 

[SBW]

19 hours ago, BoyFromTheWest said:

I agree with some others that it isn't specifically money spent on players... that is the actual problem but how we recruit and how we get that info.  Popa was notorious for doing it all his way and it seemed hit and miss.  Arnie has built well on his Dutch (in particular) contacts.  Not sure who has been responsible for the last 15 months or so for recruiting - probably Gumby plus who?  It is a whole area that needs to be fixed and we need to develop the right formulas for ongoing building of a team. 

Smurfs had Han Berger as their Technical Director or Football director, whatever you want to call it, Berger would have had contacts in Holland or in Europe to sign these players.

14 hours ago, Keithie said:

My tip is if we lose it will end Marcus Babbel's coaching career at the wanderers more likely by him quitting and getting on the first plane back to Germany or our leaders will sack him.

That's what I think will happen, Babbel has had a good record in Europe but his reputation is almost being ruined by the current playing group who are not pulling their weight out.

13 hours ago, Prydzopolis said:

We can be certain next season that: recruitment will be better; fitness & conditioning will be better; we won't be relying majority on youth; squad mix of youth/experience will be better; new stadium and; hopefully two new marquees

Lets just not put all our eggs into the new stadium basket. It doesn't do anything to solve the underlining problems than just paper over the cracks. Things need to get better in every department.

 

Those 2 things

Firstly, its the club management that are putting all their eggs into one basket for the new stadium to solve all our issues.

secondly, I am having doubts about the club's recruitment plans for next season, one part of me thinks that the club is unwilling to spend cash on signing new players instead wants Babbel or whoever the next coach is to put faith in our youth players and are looking into possibly re-sign some of the players to new deals.

[Sithslayer1991]

Watching Wanderers at the moment is Hell, torture and dire and I am just waiting for this season to end. Its is just been a disaster from the beginning of the season but it started before this season, We can blame Gombau but we could go further to popa leaving last season or the fact that we left Parra and have not been the same since. I go straight to the owners with their poor recruitment.

Yes they have done well with the academy and taking games to the country and in general off field has been decent. But on field we have been growing weaker since that GF against Adelaide. None of the players against Newcastle would be in the starting 11 of that finals team.

Its been poor recruitment and damaging to the culture of the club, I mean this is Western Sydney the best players in Australia come from here. We live and breathe the game and its just disgusting what we have become. I thought we hit a low bar when we got smashed in the derby last year under Gombau but we really hit a new low with that performance against the Jets and we deserved to lose 10-0. Its just not good enough because were at Park level football at the moment we need a win against the Mariners otherwise the real low will be getting the wooden spoon. From AFC champion, 3 A-league finals and a premiership I cannot accept that.

A club from Western Sydney cannot accept that especially when so many aspiring kids want to play the game and they come from Western Sydney and at the moment your turning off an entire fan base with the performances at the moment. We absolutely need a positive result against the Mariners and those players in the starting 11 should stop being sorry for themselves and get back to basics of playing the game.

[Keithie]

Geez shows how low we are when are wishing and hoping we can get a result against the mariners for goodness sake 

 

[Sithslayer1991]

31 minutes ago, Keithie said:

Geez shows how low we are when are wishing and hoping we can get a result against the mariners for goodness sake 

 

They are the only other team that have also managed to find ways to not win a game.

[tardotz]

1 hour ago, Keithie said:

Geez shows how low we are when are wishing and hoping we can get a result against the mariners for goodness sake 

 

The sad part is that they are playing better than us

[matty]

On 03/02/2019 at 11:52 AM, WestSyd said:

What I am saying is whatever he is doing isn't enough, because MV and SFC ( and even Melb City) are far superior to us in every department. So he needs to ramp it up, or get some outside resources to do a better job.

That's not hating on him. That's just being realistic. Otherwise all his talk of a 'big club' is just that.

Thought I'd quote this for you mate, again, you accuse him of not doing enough. I know you're struggling to follow the conversation but do your best

Edited February 4, 2019 by matty

[Smoggy]

19 hours ago, Keithie said:

Sadly the last 2 years have been dismal, last the players showed a distinct lack of respect for Gombau, including performances on the park. Gombau got the sack some think a little unfairly.

This team was testing all the top teams pre Christmas and finding ways to get beat , simple errors without scoring a goal. Remember Newcastle at spotless , we smashed them all over park and let a soft goal in , dribbled over the line, and conceded very late as we pushed for an equaliser. We are scoring goals now but still leaking them and that was only one. game. We were all tipping it was only a matter weeks before went on a good winning run Then this stupid summer of Heroes come along , well we certainly had no heroes !!!. 

The team is way below where they were, I think there is another mutiny on the at the moment probably led by Riera. Did any body notice Kwame Yebou getting stuck into Riera on Friday night, it was very strong from Kwame. 

If Central coast Mariners beat us this weekend and they will based on last weekends effort from both teams there will be some sort decision coming from the post mortem.

My tip is if we lose it will end Marcus Babbel's coaching career at the wanderers more likely by him quitting and getting on the first plane back to Germany or our leaders will sack him.

I dont know about Babbel walking after this game...but i do feel this game on Saturday is a watershed moment should we lose...

I will be there with my son but i have zero humor about it...i am in a bad ******* mood lol Needs to be a win Sat afternoon...nothing less will do....

Edited February 4, 2019 by Smoggy

[ZachMercer]

4 hours ago, Sithslayer1991 said:

A club from Western Sydney cannot accept that especially when so many aspiring kids want to play the game and they come from Western Sydney and at the moment your turning off an entire fan base with the performances at the moment. 

Spare a thought for the kids supporting the red and black behind enemy lines in the SFC heartland of the inner west. The smuge little faces of my sons schoolmates that chastise him on our performances. There's only so many times as a father I can tell these children's parents to up the ridolin dosage for these little pricks.

[WestSyd]

1 hour ago, matty said:

Thought I'd quote this for you mate, again, you accuse him of not doing enough. I know you're struggling to follow the conversation but do your best

My last post to you mate. Because you seem a little bit stalker like. But if I say on a an internet forum that I think Subway isn't spending enough money if it wants to catch up to be as big as McDonalds, then by your bizarre logic I am making 'accusations' against Subway  

Seems a bit weird that you are persisting with this, but maybe you can go tell Paul Lederer what I wrote if it triggers you so much. I am sure he will feel defamed by my comments. Internet is serious business 

[mack]

Who told you about my secret Subway fan forum?

[Davo]

 

36 minutes ago, mack said:

Who told you about my secret Subway fan forum?

www.toastedorfresh.com.au?